where do they find these web developers???
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did someone say the magic word? :-D :rose: as for me, its that "I thought I saw a puddy cat, I did, I did" - you need the proper tweetie bird accent for that to work properly :) http://www.wholetomato.com/forum/default.asp I do hope someone gets that joke ;P First there was the "I have just changed jobs, *eeek* I am busy" effect, and then I have had a very busy few weeks, it seems everyone and their brother had a question :rolleyes: hopefully I can come by more often now things are more settled. now one pussy cat to another, what is this about chocolate? :rose:
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
*Elaine makes mumbling sounds as she finishes the cholocate*
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I just have to have a little rant, and I harbour the hope that this rant will remind people not to be so VERY stupid with validation. It started simply enough. I discovered that I could get the Tetris game for my DS lite games console at a very good price from the Tesco (a popular supermarket in England) website. To make my order I had to register. To register I had to give them my phone number. So far so good. Who ever wrote the website used a regular expression in a bit of Java to validate the phone number field. I know this since I spent 45 minutes, 3 web browsers, and in the end a regular expression analysis program trying (after I started digging through the source) to register!!! :mad: Normally I would not name the guilty, but after *finally* registering - I used the regular expression checking program to help me construct a phone number that would pass the validation rules, but I have just received an email from them, after I complained about their stupid website validation rule. This was the "best" bit of the email: 5 and 7 digits numbers - Most LAN lines will have 6 digits and the system is tied in with this area, we are aware that customer still have the old fashioned 5 numbers and some depending on the area have 7. Please can we ask if you have a 5 digit number to add a 0 or a 1 at the end, again if it is a 7 digit number, please remove your last digit. I can sort of understand why they don't want to update the website - concerns over breaking it, but a major supermarket is left telling people to enter invalid phone numbers because some *idiot* hard coded the length of a phone number! It would not be so bad, but this helpful advice turned up 3 days after I registered and then emailed them. God help "average" users with an invalid phone number trying to register. If you are still reading, then thank you for your kind attention :) p.s. the final joy was the note on the registration page saying that all passwords are case insensitive. Gee, thanks. So much for the basic advice on secure passwords.
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder??? :laugh: :doh: Steve
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where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder??? :laugh: :doh: Steve
Steve Mayfield wrote:
where do they find these web developers??? Rent-a-coder???
Bingo :-D
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*Elaine makes mumbling sounds as she finishes the cholocate*
if I might have a private word with you? *wonders how best to explain that Elaine has been a naughty tiger* *this may need some thought* ;P
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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0118: Reading Although, try telling long-term residents that the dial code is not 01189 as half of them seem to think. I've seen new businesses set up with the signage giving the number as 01189 xxxxxx. Reason? We missed out on the big switchover day in 1995, the regulator at the time deciding we didn't need that many numbers (so 0734 xxxxxx became 01734 xxxxxx), then not even a year later introducing 0118 (on 8 April 1996). We didn't get anything like the public information campaign that other 011x cities got. It still seems to catch people out when they encounter 0118 3xx xxxx numbers. London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits. The 7 or 8 got prefixed to your previous 7-digit local number, depending on whether you were previously 0171 or 0181. New 020 3xxx xxxx numbers were issued as of June 2005 according to Wikipedia[^]. At the same time, Southampton and Portsmouth got 023, Coventry 024, Cardiff 029, and Northern Ireland 028, all of which have 8-digit local numbers. Frankly I'm not sure it really matters any more due to all-number dialling being common on mobile phones (for non-Brits, all mobile phones in the UK have 11-digit numbers beginning 07, and therefore will never be in the 'same area code' as any landline phone). I'm not sure whether you can dial another mobile sharing the same prefix using only a 'local' number. If you could, it would only work for phones with the same first three digits if BT's convention (e.g. 077 42xx xxxx) is correct, rather than what appeared on the packaging for my mobile (07742 xxxxxx).
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
Mike Dimmick wrote:
London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits.
Ah... I didn't realise that. I've seen so many signs saying 0207 xxx xxxx or 0208 xxx xxxx. Anyway, we do seem to have a complex phone numbering system. And one which is should be validated by a regex in a config file due to the frequency things seem to change.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me!
Yes and no. I am one of those that Mr. Grand is referring to. I grew up working on cars; rebuilding engines, painting, etc. There is more clap-trap under the hood today, but that big hunk of metal underneath it all isn't too terribly different than it used to be. I don't think that I would have any problem rebuilding one. I've even educated myself on what that clap-trap does, so it isn't that big a deal either. The biggest issue is having a good place to work and the right tools (dang metric nonsense).
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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0118: Reading Although, try telling long-term residents that the dial code is not 01189 as half of them seem to think. I've seen new businesses set up with the signage giving the number as 01189 xxxxxx. Reason? We missed out on the big switchover day in 1995, the regulator at the time deciding we didn't need that many numbers (so 0734 xxxxxx became 01734 xxxxxx), then not even a year later introducing 0118 (on 8 April 1996). We didn't get anything like the public information campaign that other 011x cities got. It still seems to catch people out when they encounter 0118 3xx xxxx numbers. London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits. The 7 or 8 got prefixed to your previous 7-digit local number, depending on whether you were previously 0171 or 0181. New 020 3xxx xxxx numbers were issued as of June 2005 according to Wikipedia[^]. At the same time, Southampton and Portsmouth got 023, Coventry 024, Cardiff 029, and Northern Ireland 028, all of which have 8-digit local numbers. Frankly I'm not sure it really matters any more due to all-number dialling being common on mobile phones (for non-Brits, all mobile phones in the UK have 11-digit numbers beginning 07, and therefore will never be in the 'same area code' as any landline phone). I'm not sure whether you can dial another mobile sharing the same prefix using only a 'local' number. If you could, it would only work for phones with the same first three digits if BT's convention (e.g. 077 42xx xxxx) is correct, rather than what appeared on the packaging for my mobile (07742 xxxxxx).
Stability. What an interesting concept. -- Chris Maunder
Mike, I'll be in Reading for the Microsoft Office and Vista Launch. Would you like to meet up on Friday or Saturday night?
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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for the system at hand it's quite likely it was developed by external contractors, and the administrative overhead of getting any regexp-enabled techie close to the code is probably more expensive than telling a margin of the customers politely to phuket off. But that's a social or economical problem, not a technical one - and I am convinced that these generally can't be solved by technology, only replaced. So while _a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans can certainly be perceived from a suitable POV, it's hardly their fault.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!_
peterchen wrote:
a margin of the customers politely to phuket off.
A margin of customers that represents somewhere in the region of 30% of the UK population - That's 18 million potential customers.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Exactly! Genius isn't genuis until it's recognised. Otherwise its just one hand clapping.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
I know this isn't quite what you meant by "Grade B guys", but, if you take a look at history, you'll see that when the Grade B guys - the middle class - disappear, and society divides into two widely separated groups (the haves and the have-nots), the next event is not typically "great ideas for everybody" but privilege for some, poverty for most, and rebellion and war following. The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
The Grand Negus wrote:
The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
LOL...golly, what tripe is this you're trying to serve up? You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate? What a vacuous approach to education.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
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The Grand Negus wrote:
The PS3 can be used by "everybody", but it's not a "great idea". The PS3 people (the Grade A guys) are making a lot of money, but their product is not helping to develop the minds of their customers (the Grade C guys) - on the contrary, it is turning them into idiots who will sleep in the rain for days to get a machine that is essentially the same as the PS2 they've already got.
LOL...golly, what tripe is this you're trying to serve up? You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate? What a vacuous approach to education.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
Jerry Hammond wrote:
You're asserting that it is the responsibility of "entertainment" to educate?
I'm asserting that it is the responsibility of everyone to be edifying, as best they can, in every circumstance. Products that are designed specifically to activate primal limbic functions at the expense of higher brain functions are not, in my view, edifying for humans since a human becomes a mere animal when the higher brain functions are so deactivated. Much entertainment has a positive effect on humans, and even entertainments that activate the primal limbic systems can be edifying if they do so in conjunction with, or as a means of, improving the participant. Every experience should make you better; if it doesn't, it's, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, a danger to your soul.
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peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Exactly! Genius isn't genuis until it's recognised. Otherwise its just one hand clapping.
Epitaph: Foolish humans, never escaped Earth.- Vernor Vinge
Jerry Hammond wrote:
Genius isn't genuis until it's recognised.
Nonsense. Einstein was a genius before he wrote his famous equation down; and when he wrote it down; and he was still a genius when the work was rejected by all of the journals to which he submitted it. He didn't become a genius when he was recognized by others; he was a genius all along.
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feline_dracoform wrote:
Most LAN lines will have 6 digits and the system is tied in with this area, we are aware that customer still have the old fashioned 5 numbers and some depending on the area have 7.
Wow! I've had a seven digit numbers all my life. The following area codes all have 7 digit numbers: 0121: Birmingham 0131: Edinburgh 0141: Glasgow 0151: Liverpool 0161: Manchester 0191: Newcastle 0207: London 0208: London And I think at the last number reorganisation 4 or 5 new areas got 7 digit numbers. The ones above represent the area that have had 7 digits after the area code for as long as I can remember (roughly 30 years). The above list probably represents 20% to 30% of the UK population.
feline_dracoform wrote:
if it is a 7 digit number, please remove your last digit.
What was the point of asking for the phone number at all!
feline_dracoform wrote:
the final joy was the note on the registration page saying that all passwords are case insensitive.
I dread to think how they are actually being stored.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
0115 Nottingham changed in the last re-organisation
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
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I just have to have a little rant, and I harbour the hope that this rant will remind people not to be so VERY stupid with validation. It started simply enough. I discovered that I could get the Tetris game for my DS lite games console at a very good price from the Tesco (a popular supermarket in England) website. To make my order I had to register. To register I had to give them my phone number. So far so good. Who ever wrote the website used a regular expression in a bit of Java to validate the phone number field. I know this since I spent 45 minutes, 3 web browsers, and in the end a regular expression analysis program trying (after I started digging through the source) to register!!! :mad: Normally I would not name the guilty, but after *finally* registering - I used the regular expression checking program to help me construct a phone number that would pass the validation rules, but I have just received an email from them, after I complained about their stupid website validation rule. This was the "best" bit of the email: 5 and 7 digits numbers - Most LAN lines will have 6 digits and the system is tied in with this area, we are aware that customer still have the old fashioned 5 numbers and some depending on the area have 7. Please can we ask if you have a 5 digit number to add a 0 or a 1 at the end, again if it is a 7 digit number, please remove your last digit. I can sort of understand why they don't want to update the website - concerns over breaking it, but a major supermarket is left telling people to enter invalid phone numbers because some *idiot* hard coded the length of a phone number! It would not be so bad, but this helpful advice turned up 3 days after I registered and then emailed them. God help "average" users with an invalid phone number trying to register. If you are still reading, then thank you for your kind attention :) p.s. the final joy was the note on the registration page saying that all passwords are case insensitive. Gee, thanks. So much for the basic advice on secure passwords.
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
My pet hate is when I have to enter a long number, and for ease I uses space, so I can check I did not make any mistakes, e.g. my phone number 0115 939 XXXX, the way I normally write it, and I get a warning saying 'spaces not allowed'. If they check for spaces and give a warning why not simply remove the spaces instead?
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
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Mike Dimmick wrote:
London's dial code is 020 and local numbers are 8 digits.
Ah... I didn't realise that. I've seen so many signs saying 0207 xxx xxxx or 0208 xxx xxxx. Anyway, we do seem to have a complex phone numbering system. And one which is should be validated by a regex in a config file due to the frequency things seem to change.
Upcoming Scottish Developers events: * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Ah... I didn't realise that. I've seen so many signs saying 0207 xxx xxxx or 0208 xxx xxxx
Don't feel too bad, 90% of the people in London do not realise that. With the rise in mobile phones, many people fail to realise the significance of an STD code.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
My pet hate is when I have to enter a long number, and for ease I uses space, so I can check I did not make any mistakes, e.g. my phone number 0115 939 XXXX, the way I normally write it, and I get a warning saying 'spaces not allowed'. If they check for spaces and give a warning why not simply remove the spaces instead?
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
I hate that too. I tend to write telephone numbers how I say them, for example 08708610XXX becomes 0870 8610 XXX. Now that wouldn't validate, but it still makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than 08708 610XXX which is how I have been forced to enter it before. Personally, I would like to see the abolition of STD codes as anything but area and service designations. Expand local area calls to cover mutliple code areas within a given locality (for example, my home Tiverton number should be considered local for Exeter and Taunton), and allow us to just have a number without any of this bloody digit grouping. It must cause more problems that it reasonably solves.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
I hate that too. I tend to write telephone numbers how I say them, for example 08708610XXX becomes 0870 8610 XXX. Now that wouldn't validate, but it still makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than 08708 610XXX which is how I have been forced to enter it before. Personally, I would like to see the abolition of STD codes as anything but area and service designations. Expand local area calls to cover mutliple code areas within a given locality (for example, my home Tiverton number should be considered local for Exeter and Taunton), and allow us to just have a number without any of this bloody digit grouping. It must cause more problems that it reasonably solves.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milkThere's a historical reason for the codes the way they are, David. When the telephone systems were built they were relay-based, and each connection was an actual physical circuit from one point to the other. Each central office had a switching set, or several, which carried specific circuits, each identified by a code. My first memory is of a 7-digit code; the first three identified the CO to which the phone line was connected, the last four identified the physical wire into the CO where my phone attached. At that time (early 60s), a single office could handle only one prefix, and calls destined for another location were switched via a trunk line to another CO. On busy days it was not uncommon to get a busy trunk signal because all of the lines available to the next CO were in use. As urban rot set in and cities became more dense, it became necessary to add area codes - another three digits - when all the three-digit codes were used up. These identified the region of the caller and used a different set of trunk lines between regions. Within each area all of the 7-digit codes could be reused, but it was still a direct point to point connection between phones. Now that we have digital switching and virtual circuits that can be dynamically routed there is no logical reason to continue this grouping practice, and in fact most cell phone companies never even implemented it. Here in the Colonies we are now allowed to keep our phone numbers when we change places of residence, but only on cell phone systems. The landline companies are still stuck with the physical limits of central and regional switching systems and continue to use the old ways. When IP telephony gets rolling as it should, I expect that to change. In fact, since the companies are all digital now, there is no technical reason I can think of for them not to change now. The holdout may be because their billing systems are all based on the phone number of the customer and it costs too much to change to address-based billing.
"...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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*Elaine makes mumbling sounds as she finishes the cholocate*
Trollslayer wrote:
she finishes the cholocate
I have lots more, just lying about the house from the holidays. Let me know if you feel like travelling...;)
"...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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Todd Smith wrote:
[I can sort of understand why they don't want to update the website - concerns over breaking it.] What's scary about that?
It's scary because it suggests that the site is not well understood by the people that are supposed to be maintaining it; it suggests that either the people responsible for the thing are not competent or that the site is so grossly overcomplicated that comprehending it is an impossibility. And it suggests that this is not an isolated case. How many teeny-boppers do you see gabbing and texting on their cell phones every day; and how many of those same people - even when full grown - do you think will be able to design and manufacture a cell phone? The world is rapidly filling with people who are dependent on technologies that they don't, won't, and can't understand. The hippies of the 1960's gave birth to a generation of MTV-style drifters with insect-like attention spans and they, in turn, gave birth to a generation of arrogant and illiterate head-bangers. If we don't start nurturing both better qualified people and significantly simpler technologies in short order, we're all in trouble. So why does it scare me? Because professional programmers shouldn't be "afraid" to fix the systems they are responsible for. It's their job.
The Grand Negus wrote:
It's scary because it suggests that the site is not well understood by the people that are supposed to be maintaining it;
Heh. The email reply he received indicated that they barely understand the phone system, and have no understanding of how people are actually using the software they wrote. I'd say the idea that something will break if such people make changes is pretty much a given... :rolleyes: :sigh:
---- I just want you to be happy; That's my only little wish...
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The Grand Negus wrote:
And that situation doesn't suggest a serious miscalculation, by someone, somewhere along the way?
If you want to say it will hurt them, no. If you sa it is stupid to design a company this way, yes.
The Grand Negus wrote:
What I'm concerned about is that we're not properly nurturing the technological skills in young people that are necessary to advance (or even maintain) a technological society.
Right, but: Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer." Your implication that this is dangerous for our tech-driven society is dangerous is 100% on spot. I don't see that very black either, because the art of technology has been in the hands of few throughout all ages, and I trust that this and the next generation will still contain the 2% or 3% of gifted individuals that you can't stop or destroy, whatever education system you throw at them. And they'll keep driving technology forward. We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
Technology became much more complex, your V8 dis-and-reassembling friends would look under a todays cars hood, they'd say "Whoa! Way too complicated for me! I think I'll go shoot some deer."
From what i've seen, they go buy and restore 20-30 year old vehicles instead. In some instances, this amounts to building an entire car from parts. The attitudes that drove the early popularity of Linux aren't limited to the computer field...
peterchen wrote:
We are quickly losing the "Grade B" guys, the second rank, that makes the great ideas happen for everybody.
I agree. I've met so many people over the years, who have the desire and aptitude to do simple computer programming. Twenty or so years ago, they'd have been amazing friends with their BASIC skills, working around problems with the relatively simple computer systems of the time. Now... they're Excel "power users", or that guy who frustrates John by messing around with SQL in his database. They're still frustrated by their computer systems, but the barrier to entry is too high and obscure for what should be simple scripts.
---- I just want you to be happy; That's my only little wish...