The second Holocaust will be different
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By "we", I mean Jews.
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Yeah, I don't understand it either. One of my best friends was part of the Jewish expulsion in the 80s from Russia. He was from the Ukraine, and went first to Italy and then to either Israel or Minnesota. They went to Minnesota, but he always said that the day Mother Israel was in trouble they would fly out at once and fight for her. Just seems a little odd, that a Russian-American would feel like that, but he does. That identity is deep it seems.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Yeah, I don't understand it either. One of my best friends was part of the Jewish expulsion in the 80s from Russia. He was from the Ukraine, and went first to Italy and then to either Israel or Minnesota. They went to Minnesota, but he always said that the day Mother Israel was in trouble they would fly out at once and fight for her. Just seems a little odd, that a Russian-American would feel like that, but he does. That identity is deep it seems.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
That identity is deep it seems.
Very much so, I'd say.
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Judah Himango wrote:
yet all we ask is that before moving between territories, you go through a checkpoint so we know you're not a nut job with a bomb belt.
Palestine is not Israel. You are within their borders. Occupying their territory and stealing their land. Then building roads that they can't use, and insisting on everyone going through checkpoints to travel within their own domain. That is a police state and really just a prison the size of a small country.
Judah Himango wrote:
Listen, the security fence might not be the best solution, or an ideal one.
It wouldn't be as bad if it recognized the true borders. This fence is another land grab. It violates the internationally recognized borders.
Judah Himango wrote:
What scares me is by your arguments, you've convinced yourselves that Israel is a racist, oppressive state that treats non-Jews like cattle.
What scares me is that you think that this is an impossibility. Just because Jews experienced racism doesn't mean your above it.
Judah Himango wrote:
ssentially, you've proved the point of the article: the preparations of hearts and minds for the 2nd Holocaust of Jews is firmly in place, both in Muslim minds and in the West.
That's total crap. I don't feel bad about Israel or Jewish people. I was engaged to a Jewish woman, and two of my best friends are Jewish. But to deny that what is going on in Palestine and to justify it in the name of the holocaust and then call any call for accountability as anti-semetic is just flat out rediculous. Right now, Israel breaks international law with impunity and resorts to claims of anti-semeticism to back pedal out of responsibility for their own wrong doing.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris, arguing over disputed land won't be very fruitful. I respect your belief that Jews are on Arab land. That's true in some places. The reverse is true in other places. It's also true the state of Israel has inflicted a lot of hurt on Palestinians, yeah I know. The situation is really tough, though, especially so when we get attacked on an almost weekly basis. One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law. Are you talking about UN resolutions? Man, I hope not; it's silly to rely on those things for ethical guidance in how nations should act, given that virtually all of the anti-Israel resolutions are introduced by our good friends who endorse Sharia law, hate Jews, hate Westerners, and call us both Jew and Westerner the "Great Satan". :) These same people at the UN recently drew up a public map of the Middle East for the next 5-10 years with boundaries of the nations there: it was by no coincidence that Israel didn't appear on that map. International law indeed...
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Judah Himango wrote:
"Give them more of your land!",
Who's land? How about the internationally recognized borders. Who's settling in another's landspace? Jewish settlers are still settling in Palestine. And that's not a "Give them more of your land" That's "Let's take some more of your land." I think you have it backwards there. I don't condone violence at all. All sides are wrong there. But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Who's settling in another's landspace?
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
Agreed.
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Who's settling in another's landspace?
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
Agreed.
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Judah Himango wrote:
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
But that's the point isn't it! Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land - it was taken from the locals and given to the Jews....so in actual fact, it's not a land give-away, it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
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Judah Himango wrote:
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
But that's the point isn't it! Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land - it was taken from the locals and given to the Jews....so in actual fact, it's not a land give-away, it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
"Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said......" Christian Graus At The Soapbox
RichardGrimmer wrote:
it's just returning it to it's rightful owners IMHO!
Rightful owners? :laugh: Richard, do you know who owned the disputed lands we're talking about -- Gaza strip, Golan Heights, Gush Katif, the West Bank, Jerusalem, hell, all of Israel? Giving it "back to its rightful owners" would mean the Golan Heights belongs to Syria, the West Bank to Jordan, and other pieces to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq. Is that what you want? Those *were* the previous owners, my friend. I'm glad you brought that up though: let's follow the "rightful owner" route of logic. The oldest owners still in existence today *are* the Jewish people -- we owned the whole damn place for about 1700 years until the Romans destroyed it all, 70 CE. Or maybe you mean the Palestinians own it? We'll, they've only been there since about 1930 when they were booted from Jordan; like "Wiccan", the term "Palestinian" sounds ancient, but is a relatively recent invention! And given there's never been a Palestinian state before, one could argue their presence there is merely occupation of our land. And while on the topic of rightful owners, keep in mind that Israel gained the disputed lands gained in a war in 1967[^], in which Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan simultaneously invaded Israel without provocation. We struck back and expanded our territories for security's sake. The Golan Heights, for example, is a vantage point that allows us to intercept missiles from Lebanon and Syria (this came in handy during that last fight with Hezbollah).
RichardGrimmer wrote:
Until the end of WWII it wasn't your land
:wtf: Are you saying Jews never lived in Israel, or never had a nation there? :~
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Chris, arguing over disputed land won't be very fruitful. I respect your belief that Jews are on Arab land. That's true in some places. The reverse is true in other places. It's also true the state of Israel has inflicted a lot of hurt on Palestinians, yeah I know. The situation is really tough, though, especially so when we get attacked on an almost weekly basis. One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law. Are you talking about UN resolutions? Man, I hope not; it's silly to rely on those things for ethical guidance in how nations should act, given that virtually all of the anti-Israel resolutions are introduced by our good friends who endorse Sharia law, hate Jews, hate Westerners, and call us both Jew and Westerner the "Great Satan". :) These same people at the UN recently drew up a public map of the Middle East for the next 5-10 years with boundaries of the nations there: it was by no coincidence that Israel didn't appear on that map. International law indeed...
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Judah Himango wrote:
One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law
Nah. No faith in that. But, the borders agreed to must be adhered to. If you (Israel) decide to act on your own and decide which borders to recognize in the face of a previous agreement, then you lose credibility in your arguments.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Who's settling in another's landspace?
Oh, how about the 9000 Jews booted out of their homes in Gush Katif this past summer? Yes, 9000 Jews. Yes, that was a land give-away. For peace. No, we still don't have peace. Or the portion of Jerusalem, or the portions in Gaza, or... we've given away so much land -- big pieces of our already-tiny country -- for peace that has never happened.
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But at some point it has to be recognized that there isn't any innocence on either side.
Agreed.
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This was to return to the internationally recognized borders. And by that, I mean, that this is land being returned. Not lost. There shouldn't be any settlers in Gaza. Or the West Bank. Jerusalem seems to be a bit different being the holy land to both. But I don't think that this was so much a give away as a return.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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This was to return to the internationally recognized borders. And by that, I mean, that this is land being returned. Not lost. There shouldn't be any settlers in Gaza. Or the West Bank. Jerusalem seems to be a bit different being the holy land to both. But I don't think that this was so much a give away as a return.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris, tell me why you think we should return to those borders.
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Judah Himango wrote:
One thing I want to ask you is, you seem to have a lot of faith in international law
Nah. No faith in that. But, the borders agreed to must be adhered to. If you (Israel) decide to act on your own and decide which borders to recognize in the face of a previous agreement, then you lose credibility in your arguments.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But, the borders agreed to must be adhered to.
Agreed, unless war happens and borders change. No?
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Chris, tell me why you think we should return to those borders.
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Because Israel agreed to it. No do overs. No deciding to change your mind and take matters into your own hands. Live up to your word. Else you can't cry for help.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Chris S Kaiser wrote:
But, the borders agreed to must be adhered to.
Agreed, unless war happens and borders change. No?
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This hasn't been war in the qualified sense. If its war, then it isn't terrorism. Is it civil war? Treaties have to be adhered to to hold any value. If you choose to ignore them, you can't expect to be taken seriously in future negotiations.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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This hasn't been war in the qualified sense. If its war, then it isn't terrorism. Is it civil war? Treaties have to be adhered to to hold any value. If you choose to ignore them, you can't expect to be taken seriously in future negotiations.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
I was speaking of the war in which the disputed territories were taken by Israel after the invasion by 4 of its hostile Islamic theocratic neighbors: Six Day War[^].
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Treaties have to be adhered to to hold any value.
I agree. The Oslo Accords guaranteed us peace if we gave up parts of Gaza and the West Bank which we won in the war earlier. We've transfered that land to Palestinian authority, but we still didn't get peace. We were then told to sign the Interim Agreement, assuring us that if we just signed away Bethlehem, Hebron, Jenin, Nablus, Qalqilya, Ramallah, and Tulkarm, peace would reign supreme. Those areas are now under Palestinian rule, but peace never came. We have since been convinced to sign 10 more agreements (citation[^]) that trade land for peace. But somehow, Chris, I suspect we won't have peace until there is no land left for us to live on.
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I was speaking of the war in which the disputed territories were taken by Israel after the invasion by 4 of its hostile Islamic theocratic neighbors: Six Day War[^].
Chris S Kaiser wrote:
Treaties have to be adhered to to hold any value.
I agree. The Oslo Accords guaranteed us peace if we gave up parts of Gaza and the West Bank which we won in the war earlier. We've transfered that land to Palestinian authority, but we still didn't get peace. We were then told to sign the Interim Agreement, assuring us that if we just signed away Bethlehem, Hebron, Jenin, Nablus, Qalqilya, Ramallah, and Tulkarm, peace would reign supreme. Those areas are now under Palestinian rule, but peace never came. We have since been convinced to sign 10 more agreements (citation[^]) that trade land for peace. But somehow, Chris, I suspect we won't have peace until there is no land left for us to live on.
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Judah Himango wrote:
But somehow, Chris, I suspect we won't have peace until there is no land left for us to live on.
Who's calling for more land than what was in the treaty?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Because Israel agreed to it. No do overs. No deciding to change your mind and take matters into your own hands. Live up to your word. Else you can't cry for help.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
By that logic, the United States ought to return to its original 13 colonies, the UK should disannex Scotland, hell, we might as well all return to our caves. ;) Fact is, the disputed territories were won after Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and Jordan invaded Israel in 1967. Wars change borders. In fact, they define them. If you can name some major nation whose borders were defined outside of war, I'd be more inclined to listen. Now Palestinians are crying about it because their Islamic theocratic allies lost control of territories in war. Like you said Chris, no do overs. :)
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By that logic, the United States ought to return to its original 13 colonies, the UK should disannex Scotland, hell, we might as well all return to our caves. ;) Fact is, the disputed territories were won after Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and Jordan invaded Israel in 1967. Wars change borders. In fact, they define them. If you can name some major nation whose borders were defined outside of war, I'd be more inclined to listen. Now Palestinians are crying about it because their Islamic theocratic allies lost control of territories in war. Like you said Chris, no do overs. :)
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Its the internationally recognized borders set in 1967 that I'm speaking of.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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Judah Himango wrote:
But somehow, Chris, I suspect we won't have peace until there is no land left for us to live on.
Who's calling for more land than what was in the treaty?
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
The Islamic radicals controlling the Palestinian government, and certain people in the West that don't understand the situation. Gush Katif, for example, was never mentioned in the original treaty, yet just recently 9000 Jews were forced to pack up and leave.
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Its the internationally recognized borders set in 1967 that I'm speaking of.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
Which ones are those? Where are they defined? And by whom? Can you show me some international maps that, for example, show the Golan Heights as belonging to Syria, as it was before the war? Or can you show me a map that shows the West Bank under Jordanian rule, as it was before the war? Chris, no one recognizes this, perhaps spare the few Islamic radicals that don't recognize Israel's existence. Again, the logic you're espousing could be applied to most any other nation in the world. "I think the US should go back to the recognized borders, the ones before the war for Independence." :rolleyes:
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Which ones are those? Where are they defined? And by whom? Can you show me some international maps that, for example, show the Golan Heights as belonging to Syria, as it was before the war? Or can you show me a map that shows the West Bank under Jordanian rule, as it was before the war? Chris, no one recognizes this, perhaps spare the few Islamic radicals that don't recognize Israel's existence. Again, the logic you're espousing could be applied to most any other nation in the world. "I think the US should go back to the recognized borders, the ones before the war for Independence." :rolleyes:
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There was a treaty signed after in 1967 where borders were established. Israel should stay with what they agreed to or their word isn't worth anything.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
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There was a treaty signed after in 1967 where borders were established. Israel should stay with what they agreed to or their word isn't worth anything.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder
So, you're saying Israel signed a treaty agreeing to give away all the land they won in the war? Can you show me that treaty? I just did some deeper research and have found no such treaty being signed by involved parties. (Lots of meaningless UN resolutions backed by Arab parties hoping to get back their land, as expected, but nothing signed by all involved parties).
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