Microsoft .NET applications for Windows
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starcraft4ever wrote:
What do you think about it?
All languages and frameworks fall for me, as a writer of compilers, into two groups: (1) tools that can be used to conveniently and efficiently reproduce themselves, and (2) tools that cannot. One can, for example, write a straight C compiler, in straight C, and produce a child as good - or better - than the parent. This is not the case, however, with C#: the language, in this sense, is sterile. Any serious programmer who gives the matter sufficient thought will, I believe, reach a similar classification scheme. I suspect that the serious programmers at Microsoft have done so and have - as a result of their analysis - rejected the C#/.NET combination as a "serious" development platform. The more experienced of the bunch, of course, knew this all along.
Compiler Generator Coco/R[[^](http://Compiler Generator Coco/R)]can be written in C#, I've played a little bit on it. Of course you may mean something different or things at very low level ... I think one of the problems in managed frameworks is that it's difficult to protect IP, for which we have solution. For many dynamic applications, performance is not really bad due to its delayed memory recycling mechanism, which may not be allowed in action sustained real-time systems.
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And another thing is all the marketing Microsoft put out about other companies that rewrote their applications with the .NET Framework to reap the benefits etc. They have case studies, cost and performance improvement charts etc. etc. They even sponsored rewrites of popular systems in .NET. Yet they won't do the same. One bit of .NET they do seem to use though is ASP.NET. The bit I like least.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
One bit of .NET they do seem to use though is ASP.NET. The bit I like least.
Paul Watson wrote:
The bit I like least.
Can you elaborate?
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
It could make perfect sense but from where did you get that information. If I open devenv.exe with Reflector.exe it shows that it can't be opened because it doesn't contains a valid CLI header. If I open devenv.exe with Depends.exe it shows me that it doesn't contain any call to MSCOREE.dll as all .NET programs will shows. Of course I’m referring to managed application. Every test I'm doing show me that it is not a .NET application, If it is .NET then why reflector.exe and depends.exe shows that?
So, if 99% of my application is written in C#, but is called by a C++ .exe file that starts the CLR using COM, it's not a .NET application??? Of course MS didn't rewrite the existing parts of Visual Studio to use .NET, but AFAIK mosts wizards (e.g. for data binding), the forms designer, C# IntelliSense etc. are .NET.
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Paul Watson wrote:
Who is using your fertile rabbit?
The little bunny, so far, has had a lot of visitors but hasn't yet found suitable mates. Growth in sales of this kind of product - at least from our own past experience - is typically exponential: 2, 4, 8, 16, ... pow! We're still, I would guess, about a year or so from "pow". We've had 102,040 hits on our website, from 12,445 unique IPs, to date. The Manifesto has been downloaded 1921 times, the sample application 2191 times, and 91 individuals have the complete development system in hand. We've had extended discussions regarding our future plans with about a dozen serious people; we're currently tutoring one. Since our primary interest is the development of the "apparently intelligent"(tm) PAL 3000, we've been rather remiss in adding the necessary libraries for things like game development and server-side programming tools; we've been looking for people who would like to take the product in those (and other) directions, but not as hard as we might since we're concentrating on the long-term goals. We're also planting some seeds with an eye toward foreign-language versions (Plain Spanish and Plain German, for example), but that's an even longer-term matter.
As for the seed planting: You better don't. I am dead serious about this, and I have no low intentions with this advice: Different languages have different grammar (e.g. word order) and different punctuation (e.g. the vertically mirrored question- and exclamation-marks in Spanish). If you confine the "translations" to the original grammar and punctuation, native speakers of the language used will easily be confused. Additionally, even if you manage to solve this problem, you still need to provide everything in three different version. Also, anyone who writes an app and delivers/releases the "source speech" will probably only write it once - thus, integration between Plain English, Plain German, etc. will be necessary to enable international cooperation. There is a reason that C++ uses english keywords, even if the VS-IDE is localized.
Cheers, Sebastian -- Contra vim mortem non est medicamen in hortem.
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Paul Watson wrote:
One bit of .NET they do seem to use though is ASP.NET. The bit I like least.
Paul Watson wrote:
The bit I like least.
Can you elaborate?
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesYou want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
Yes please - as you are a professional web designer/developer I would be interested in your take on ASP.NET. I use PHP on *nix servers but would like to know more about ASP.NET for when a client asks for information about it.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Five years have passed with the famous .NET framework and still I didn't see a single application (Client) from Microsoft made in .NET. Is there some application like Calc or Paint or something that MS did in .NET for Windows 2000, XP or Windows Vista? I really would like to see it. I love C#, but sometimes I feel like I’m a guinea pig, how come they advertise like the best platform to develop when them self don't use it? I guess they had the time, money and resources to train people in C#/.NET :)... Why it didn't happen. Also did you see any MS application on Vista using WPF? Sometimes I really wonder myself what's the reason MS it is not using .NET aggressively, and personal I think five years is more enough to come up with some working application, at least I'd like to see a Calc.exe or a Minesweeper distributed from them to make me feel more secure about it before keep going with C# and stop more and more using C++ just for very special things that you can't or are too difficult to do with C#. What do you think about it?
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I think it doesn't matter one bit. I have a hugely sucessful .net application that is selling very well and is very easy to make fast updates for being that it's written in .net and it makes no difference to me if microsoft actually uses it or not.
Of course it does for many reasons. If they don't use it and in a future .NET is not the business that they expected, they will shut it down, you think they will think about the developers over the money, when did they?. Also if they are not using it then I would be really suspicious where the problem could be or at least I would be wondering about it. Could you drink tap water if you know all employees of the water treatment plant buy bottle water, but they guaranty there is nothing wrong with tap water they produce? For some reason they keep doing the same, C/C++ applications that invokes .NET components, I don’t have anything against that, and I think C# is a beautiful and powerful language for that reason I just would like to know why they don’t use it aggressively.
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Who is using your fertile rabbit?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Who is using your fertile rabbit?
it had so many users it wrapped over the top end of the integer word boundry and became zero again.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
Article!
"Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus
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Paul Watson wrote:
Who is using your fertile rabbit?
it had so many users it wrapped over the top end of the integer word boundry and became zero again.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Paul Watson wrote:
You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
Article!
"Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus
Are there dissenting articles on CP?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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As for the seed planting: You better don't. I am dead serious about this, and I have no low intentions with this advice: Different languages have different grammar (e.g. word order) and different punctuation (e.g. the vertically mirrored question- and exclamation-marks in Spanish). If you confine the "translations" to the original grammar and punctuation, native speakers of the language used will easily be confused. Additionally, even if you manage to solve this problem, you still need to provide everything in three different version. Also, anyone who writes an app and delivers/releases the "source speech" will probably only write it once - thus, integration between Plain English, Plain German, etc. will be necessary to enable international cooperation. There is a reason that C++ uses english keywords, even if the VS-IDE is localized.
Cheers, Sebastian -- Contra vim mortem non est medicamen in hortem.
Sebastian Schneider wrote:
As for the seed planting: You better don't. I am dead serious about this, and I have no low intentions with this advice: Different languages have different grammar (e.g. word order) and different punctuation (e.g. the vertically mirrored question- and exclamation-marks in Spanish). If you confine the "translations" to the original grammar and punctuation, native speakers of the language used will easily be confused. Additionally, even if you manage to solve this problem, you still need to provide everything in three different version. Also, anyone who writes an app and delivers/releases the "source speech" will probably only write it once - thus, integration between Plain English, Plain German, etc. will be necessary to enable international cooperation. There is a reason that C++ uses english keywords, even if the VS-IDE is localized.
I think you're picturing our work as the mere development of an alternate programming language. The multi-lingual aspects of our project have to be considered in the larger framework of the "apparently intelligent"(tm) PAL 3000 machine, which is our ultimate goal. We're interested in the ways that humans learn and understand language. Especially intriguing to us is the bi-lingual or multi-lingual brain. So teaching the PAL other languages is a necessary part of the project. The thing needs to understand both "Any new mail?" and "¿Nuevo correo?" in a way that gives us insight into the mind of a cosmopolitan human. The "CosmoPALitan 3000" is the research vehicle that will take us in that direction.
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Are there dissenting articles on CP?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Well, there were some C# vs VB.NET articles. http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.asp[^] http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/vbdefamation.asp[^] But maybe that's not the same as you have in mind. Anyway, I think ASP.NET is great - it would be interesting to hear something else...
"Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus
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Visual Studio Development Env. itself is a .net application..
L.W.C. Nirosh. Colombo, Sri Lanka.
I think it's the FCL (framework class library) that's mostly written in .NET, not the IDE.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
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Five years have passed with the famous .NET framework and still I didn't see a single application (Client) from Microsoft made in .NET. Is there some application like Calc or Paint or something that MS did in .NET for Windows 2000, XP or Windows Vista? I really would like to see it. I love C#, but sometimes I feel like I’m a guinea pig, how come they advertise like the best platform to develop when them self don't use it? I guess they had the time, money and resources to train people in C#/.NET :)... Why it didn't happen. Also did you see any MS application on Vista using WPF? Sometimes I really wonder myself what's the reason MS it is not using .NET aggressively, and personal I think five years is more enough to come up with some working application, at least I'd like to see a Calc.exe or a Minesweeper distributed from them to make me feel more secure about it before keep going with C# and stop more and more using C++ just for very special things that you can't or are too difficult to do with C#. What do you think about it?
This same question has been around since .NET bagan and has been answered many times. The last time I remember this question (not sure if here or Channel 9) there was a list with a number of commerical apps from Micosoft that used .NET. The biggest problem for Microsoft is a lot of there stuff is legacy and there is no way to justify the cost to move them to .NET. New stuff from Microsoft seems to be coming out as either built with .NET or has a big dependancy on .NET. I really thought this old .NET issue was settled a few years ago :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID/CardSpace - Is it time? Latest Tech Blog Post: Scratch: fun for all ages for free!
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Sebastian Schneider wrote:
As for the seed planting: You better don't. I am dead serious about this, and I have no low intentions with this advice: Different languages have different grammar (e.g. word order) and different punctuation (e.g. the vertically mirrored question- and exclamation-marks in Spanish). If you confine the "translations" to the original grammar and punctuation, native speakers of the language used will easily be confused. Additionally, even if you manage to solve this problem, you still need to provide everything in three different version. Also, anyone who writes an app and delivers/releases the "source speech" will probably only write it once - thus, integration between Plain English, Plain German, etc. will be necessary to enable international cooperation. There is a reason that C++ uses english keywords, even if the VS-IDE is localized.
I think you're picturing our work as the mere development of an alternate programming language. The multi-lingual aspects of our project have to be considered in the larger framework of the "apparently intelligent"(tm) PAL 3000 machine, which is our ultimate goal. We're interested in the ways that humans learn and understand language. Especially intriguing to us is the bi-lingual or multi-lingual brain. So teaching the PAL other languages is a necessary part of the project. The thing needs to understand both "Any new mail?" and "¿Nuevo correo?" in a way that gives us insight into the mind of a cosmopolitan human. The "CosmoPALitan 3000" is the research vehicle that will take us in that direction.
You plain english compiler can create other new compilers?
company, work and everything else @ netis
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You plain english compiler can create other new compilers?
company, work and everything else @ netis
Zoltan Balazs wrote:
You plain english compiler can create other new compilers?
Yes. The current version of the development system was written entirely in Plain English, using the previous version of the thing. Which was also written in Plain English, using the version before that. And so forth, for about ten generations. If you follow the trail to its source you will eventually find the AIQ language (an Oberon-like invention of our own), Delphi Pascal (without objects), Intel Assembler, and, finally, paper tape. The program includes a unique interface, a simplified file manager, a hexadecimal dumper, an elegant text editor, a wysiwyg page-layout facility (for documentation), and the native-code-generating compiler/linker which produces stand-alone Windows PE-format executables. The entire package consists of about 25,000 lines of open-source Plain English code. The stand-alone executable is a remarkably small 752 _kilo_bytes, and the system can recompile itself in less than 3 seconds on a bottom-of-the-line Dell.
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Paul Watson wrote:
You want me to go into depth on why I don't like ASP.NET?
Yes please - as you are a professional web designer/developer I would be interested in your take on ASP.NET. I use PHP on *nix servers but would like to know more about ASP.NET for when a client asks for information about it.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesMaybe I should write an article on this someday. A couple of things off the top of my head are the layering of state on a stateless protocol, the heavyweight viewstate, the bad habits it encourages, the layers placed between you and the text layer, the reliance on components which are great for intranets but pants for the public web and much more. It is a nice tool for hacking together websites that work like desktop apps. But it is overly complicated for what it tries to do and gets in the way of devs who know what they are doing in web-dev.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Maybe I should write an article on this someday. A couple of things off the top of my head are the layering of state on a stateless protocol, the heavyweight viewstate, the bad habits it encourages, the layers placed between you and the text layer, the reliance on components which are great for intranets but pants for the public web and much more. It is a nice tool for hacking together websites that work like desktop apps. But it is overly complicated for what it tries to do and gets in the way of devs who know what they are doing in web-dev.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Maybe I should write an article on this someday.
Please do. :cool:
Paul Watson wrote:
layering of state on a stateless protocol
Misguided at best. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson wrote:
the heavyweight viewstate
Not good. X|
Paul Watson wrote:
the bad habits it encourages,
Reminds me of the WYSWYG guys that swear that they can knock out a web site in minutes. :rolleyes: Unfortunately it only takes minutes for me to find something wrong with usability or cross browser compatibility. X| I also like to watch the look on their faces when I run it through the W3C verifier and the big red banner announces that there are problems with the layout. :wtf:
Paul Watson wrote:
the layers placed between you and the text layer, the reliance on components which are great for intranets but pants for the public web
Does that mean viewable on a particular browser but only after you download the 50Kg of crap system architecture into a 30Kg system. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson wrote:
much more
Enough said. :suss: You have confirmed my suspicions but it is nice to hear it from an independent source. :sigh: I am usually viewed as being closed minded by the fan boys because I like to take a minimalist approach -- simplest rendition, without unnecessary bells and whistles. :rolleyes:
Paul Watson wrote:
It is a nice tool for hacking together websites that work like desktop apps. But it is overly complicated for what it tries to do and gets in the way of devs who know what they are doing in web-dev.
Good reason to stay away. X| Thank you for the reply. :cool:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes