Developer's Age
-
How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business. I interview on the basis of my skills and experience. When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"... Ideally, you would have a mixture of younger and older people on your team. There are many examples where my intern has helped me, but many more examples of me helping him learn. Regardless, I need him to get the "grunt-work" done, while I focus on bigger issues. Employers who realise the benefit of that complimentary setup, will ignore age for the most part.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
ZapBranny wrote:
you're contracting then maybe if say at age 38 you're contract expires you may not be able to find another gig (contract) or no employer might want to take you in as a permie. In the same situation you won't have to worry if you are the latter (permie).
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that. Independents are expensive and potential clients are more likely to hire me (46 years old) at a higher rate than some young kid with 4 years of wiz-bang high tech skills at a lower rate, because the work has to be done correctly the first time. They won't risk failure because the low rate guy doesn't have the "project management experience". You get what you pay for... But that is just my "experience." P.S. As an independent, I'm never looking for someone to take me in as a "permie." The money is to good and I'm not subject to that corporate culture.
rtalan wrote:
As an independent Software Engineer, I find it is easier for me to get work because of my experience. The key, I believe, is that experience is more than lots of exposure to technology but is also "life experience" in the work place and the maturity that comes along with that.
Agreed. I've discovered the same thing. Us "older" developers get more work done than the younger, less experienced developers not because we know all the "gee whiz" new technology and buzzwords; we know how to make tools work regardless of what they are and that takes experience. My supervisor made the observation that the market has changed in recent years. Instead of wanting to jettison the 50+ age set (which I am approaching) they are wanting to KEEP them because productivity isn't just a matter of which cool tools are being used - it's a matter of knowing which tools to pick and which ones to NOT pick. That takes experience, which takes TIME. -CB :)
-
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
In the UK it legally has zero importance
While technically correct that legally it has no importance in most western societies it could be an unstated determining factor in the selection process. Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview. Age like race, gender, physical disability, national origin, sexual orientation, etc., cannot be stated legally as a contributing factor but none the less can play a part of the evaluation process when deciding to hire a job candidate. Age does play a factor in peoples evaluation of other people; possibly a subconscious factor, just not a stated one for legal reasons.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview.
Or the decision not to call people in for an interview at all. I remember a former boss of mine complaining that he had got so many applications for one job that he just *had* to eliminate candidates on criteria he felt might be unfair. In his case, he didn't even interview anyone who didn't have all the relevant Microsoft certifications - which would have stopped me getting my own job back off him. (He also rejected any CV that demonstrated an inability to spell, in which I did support him :)). He just couldn't interview that many people. I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria. I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. When I have finished feeding, nappy-changing and mothering a successive two infants into toddlerhood, I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years. I'm just hoping that the occasional contract and freelance job, and a few articles on Code Project will be enough to convince employers that my brain hasn't been atrophied by baby vomit! :~
-
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
An employer will consider that you're too expensive for the role
This is the correlation between age and wage, so in a way it's not age-discrimination -- if any older person quotes lower it probably won't matter.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
or will consider that you have no ambition if you've been in the role too long.
I personally avoid shops that have this mindset. They're usually run by folks who don't get that programmers like to program so much -- they don't understand why everyone doesn't want to climb the management ladder like they do.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Experience has diminishing returns. A C++ coder with 20 years experience is not usually 10 times better than one with 2 years experience.
This is true, of course. There's a limit to the wage or salary a programmer can pull down. You can raise that limit by getting into certain applications like financial services, or getting ownership in some way (writing your own software, getting into a partnership etc), or going down the CIO/CTO path (which gets you away from programming, at least every day). The thing that seems to be missing from this equation is the weight of analysis/design skills -- I think it's probably true that pure coding skills are gained in the first few years, but analysis/design skills take quite a while longer. Steve
mobilemobile wrote:
I think it's probably true that pure coding skills are gained in the first few years, but analysis/design skills take quite a while longer
Yes, I agree 100%.
-
JimmyRopes wrote:
Hiring is such a subjective process that any and all things can influence the decision to hire or not to hire, as the case may be, any individual showing up for an interview.
Or the decision not to call people in for an interview at all. I remember a former boss of mine complaining that he had got so many applications for one job that he just *had* to eliminate candidates on criteria he felt might be unfair. In his case, he didn't even interview anyone who didn't have all the relevant Microsoft certifications - which would have stopped me getting my own job back off him. (He also rejected any CV that demonstrated an inability to spell, in which I did support him :)). He just couldn't interview that many people. I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria. I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. When I have finished feeding, nappy-changing and mothering a successive two infants into toddlerhood, I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years. I'm just hoping that the occasional contract and freelance job, and a few articles on Code Project will be enough to convince employers that my brain hasn't been atrophied by baby vomit! :~
Emma Burrows wrote:
I can easily imagine less conscientious people applying a variety of questionable criteria.
Unfortunately that is true. When it comes to age it is easy to spot because of the length of time in the industry. Provided the criteria are never formalized it would be impossible to prove that discrimination has taken place. :sigh:
Emma Burrows wrote:
I must admit I'm worried about this kind of thing not because of age, but because of family situation. ... I will have been away from the permanent, office-based job market for four years.
The sad fact is that it is easier to get a job if you have one than it is if you are not currently employed. X| In your situation I would recommend you start your re-entry into the job market by working for a consultancy. They are less concerned with gaps in your CV as they are about your ability to do the job. :cool: It is in their interest to promote you to clients so they will not mention that you are just returning from maternity leave. :~ You are, after all, currently employed by them. :suss: Once you are employed you can then decide if you want to continue as a consultant or get full time placement. There are trade offs that you can evaluate at that time. :cool:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Ed.Poore wrote:
they have to keep the paper records for ISO9000 compliance
I'd hope they keep the paper for IEC 61508[^] compliance rather than ISO9000 (at least I think it's 61508 that applies to medical systems) - we have to do the paperwork for DO-178[^] compliance, but then, we do have these guys[^] auditting us regularly, checking we've dotted our i's and crossed our t's.
-
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business. I interview on the basis of my skills and experience. When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"... Ideally, you would have a mixture of younger and older people on your team. There are many examples where my intern has helped me, but many more examples of me helping him learn. Regardless, I need him to get the "grunt-work" done, while I focus on bigger issues. Employers who realise the benefit of that complimentary setup, will ignore age for the most part.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles.Jasmine2501 wrote:
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business.
In fact it is illegal to ask in most western societies. :doh:
Jasmine2501 wrote:
When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"...
I am surprised to hear that the interviewer would ask that question. That is one of the unspoken questions under the current legal climate in the US; along with race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. :~ There is actually no need to ask how old you are and risk a discrimination lawsuit if you are not chosen for the job, for whatever reason. When you say you have 20 years experience there is no question as to your age! :rolleyes:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I am 73. I have had three contract positions in the last two years, and am about to sign on to a permanent job writing code for embedded systems. I expect to keep working as long as my work is good enough that someone will pay me for it. Ideally, that will be until I die. You rest, you rot. JimT
-
Jasmine2501 wrote:
I don't tell people my age. It's none of their business.
In fact it is illegal to ask in most western societies. :doh:
Jasmine2501 wrote:
When I say I have 20 years experience, people sometimes ask my age... but I tend to respond by saying "how old do you think I am"...
I am surprised to hear that the interviewer would ask that question. That is one of the unspoken questions under the current legal climate in the US; along with race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. :~ There is actually no need to ask how old you are and risk a discrimination lawsuit if you are not chosen for the job, for whatever reason. When you say you have 20 years experience there is no question as to your age! :rolleyes:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesA long time ago I trimmed my resume so it only showed the last ten years of work. I've gone to a couple of interviews where they seemed taken aback by my grey hairs (those that are left, that is). I am sure I have also had interviews that wouldn't have happened if I said I had been writing code sonce 1962. Get the interview! That's the big step. How you do after that depends on how you sell yourself. I'm still working. JimT
-
A long time ago I trimmed my resume so it only showed the last ten years of work. I've gone to a couple of interviews where they seemed taken aback by my grey hairs (those that are left, that is). I am sure I have also had interviews that wouldn't have happened if I said I had been writing code sonce 1962. Get the interview! That's the big step. How you do after that depends on how you sell yourself. I'm still working. JimT
Right. When I get in front of people I generally nail it. It's getting the interview that's the hard part, and too much experience can sometimes hurt you. I cut people some slack when they ask my age... they make a mental estimate of my age and figure I'm lying, but when I tell them how old I actually am, they realise I'm being honest about my experience. I mean... do I look old enough to have started in the 80s? http://www.smoothjazzy.com/photos.html[^]
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
Maximilien wrote:
a serious employer will look at experience, and then look at what it will bring to the company.
I would say a talented employer will not rely on once history (how many years of experience an employee is having) to predict the future of him. Rather he/ she should currently evaluate the employee for a given period of time and should be able to predict his tomorrow's contribution to the company. I have seen people with lots of experience but not productive as a young one with lesser experience. It is not just the experience what matters.. I have a good example for this. In early days fighter jet missiles use to find and attack the jet based on the jet’s history. That is, the missile thrown on to the heat path of the jet and then by driving its direction through the heat path the missile find, hit and destroy the jet. That missile was not that accurate. Today they have improved the technology, where the missile evaluates the jet positioning by considering its present moving direction. At a time missile take the jet’s speed and direction and predict the future position by the time missile hit the jet. There the missile adjust its direction dynamically hence the accuracy of hitting its goal increase a lot. So the conclusion is that it is better not to rely on once history..
L.W.C. Nirosh. Colombo, Sri Lanka.
:suss:Hmmmm. How is it that you are knowing so much about surface-to-air missiles?
-
:suss:Hmmmm. How is it that you are knowing so much about surface-to-air missiles?
-
How important is it to employers? Is there an age where if an employer looks at your resume, will start considering if you're too old for the role? Is it better to work permanent then in the long term as opposed to contracting? Thanks.
I am a SysAdmin, I battle my own daemons.
as a 64 year old I can tell you that in Australia at least it is not easy to get work at that age, permanent or contract, what work I do get it entirely due to knowing people, it is very hard to get "new" work - I suspect the hirers, who are invariably younger, are nervous about being outgunned. Also folks cant understand why one is not a manager (damager) at that age. my advice - get out of IT when you're about 50, program as a hobby, and buy a boat building business or something. rgds pjd