Poor experience with Vista today
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l a u r e n wrote:
i have a very good friend at microsoft in a senior position who told me not to install vista for at least 6 months yet so clearly there are problems
Well, that doesn't mean much, a lot of people take that approach, and not without reason, I mean, it's a new piece of software, it's *huge*, and we want to assume it has no bugs ?
l a u r e n wrote:
but according to rob there is nothing they are to blame for
Well, it's inevitable there are bugs, and there are definately ways in which Vista sucks. My point was, if you wanted to make such a broad point to Rob, your timing diluted it a little :-) Rob was right, Microsoft are not to blame for third party drivers. I have run Vista, but I am not at the moment, only because I am waiting for hte DVD so I can restore it ( I had to reinstall XP ). I ran W2000 and XP dual boot for years, I only left W2000 when I moved to a new PC. I will be the same with Vista. I will dual boot, but my PC will always be able to do all I need it to under XP, just in case things go south. That just makes sense to me.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
i edited my previous post to add a few points
"there is no spoon" {me}
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't think he said anything
That's why I asked him a question whether I understood him the way I did.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
it is always going to be a bit of a gamble
Not exactly. MS provided the Windows Vista Upgrade Advisor that would scan your system and create a software and hardware comparability report. In my case it was very accurate.
In my case it was lying. :) I have a very high end system and the performance is less than stellar. Again, it goes back to the quality of drivers from big-name vendors. It's easy to blame the vendors or MS. But, I think MS should really have taken it upon themselves and made sure that the major hardware vendors were supplying rock solid drivers prior to launch. How they could have done that I am not sure, but it seems that many people are having driver issues on Vista certified systems. I think MS will need to do more than those stupid adds to convince users to upgrade. Personally, I am telling my friends and family who ask not to waste their money until vista has been out for some time.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Andre Buenger wrote:
The X1650 as well as the 7600GS are supposed to run under Vista, the box even says certified for Vista.
I would be calling the manufacturer then, and asking them to back up their "certified for Vista" claim. Again, you are blaming the wrong folks.
Rob Graham wrote:
Again, you are blaming the wrong folks.
I agree with you Rob, but the average user isn't going to care. They see the Vista Certified logo and they think that MS has blessed the product. (And, I may be wrong here, but doesn't that logo mean that MS has certified the driver? )
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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All Vista drivers MUST be signed and certified with Microsof (that's a new Vista security model to protect DRM from hacking). If MS certifies driver which causing problem, who is sharing responsibility for that driver?
gnk
FWIW I have installed unsigned and uncertified drivers on Vista (32 bit) without any problems. It is the 64 bit edition that enforces that restriction.
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i was asking rob if he was a complete microsoft apologist i guess i have a very good friend at microsoft in a senior position who told me not to install vista for at least 6 months yet so clearly there are problems but according to rob there is nothing they are to blame for [edit] and my point is i guess that when the biggest software company in the history of the world releases their flagship os after 5yrs of development you dont really expect this many issues and such ... and when i see apologists (my new less-inflammatory word for fanboy) excusing everything and blaming the consumer i wonder what their agenda really is [/edit]
"there is no spoon" {me}
l a u r e n wrote:
was asking rob if he was a complete microsoft apologist i guess
No, I'm not. I likely won't install Vista on any critical work machines until after SP1 is out. On the other hand, I think people who rant on and on about how Microsoft screwed them up when in reality they made a bad decision should be called out. Anyone who is building their own box is taking a real risk that Vista will have problems, and should be prepared for that eventuality. Simple basics like checking vendor sites for updated drivers before starting an install are mandatory to have any chance of success. Even the big builders like Dell and HP are likely to have a few issues for a while, but at least they have tested all their hardware in combination before you get it. Even if you buy hardware that has a "certified for Vista" logo, you have no guarantee that the combination of components is going to play nice together. Vista has plenty of problems, UAC may turn out to be the stupidest "solution" ever implemented to address security issues (I am willing to bet 99.99% of users disable it within 1 month - or have someone disable it for them). The issues the OP is complaining about are mostly his own fault, especially give that he must have been aware that others have had problems. Still he went ahead with an install on a home-brew, custom hardware combination, without having up to date drivers for all the HW in hand. Blame Microsoft for things that are their fault, but be adult enough to take responsibility for your own stupidity.
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Rob Graham wrote:
Again, you are blaming the wrong folks.
I agree with you Rob, but the average user isn't going to care. They see the Vista Certified logo and they think that MS has blessed the product. (And, I may be wrong here, but doesn't that logo mean that MS has certified the driver? )
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
doesn't that logo mean that MS has certified the driver?
Yes, but it does not mean that the driver is on the Vista Media, nor that it is compatible with every other piece of HW in the universe... The average user isn't going to build their own box, either. They are going to buy a pre-built machine, likely with Vista pre-installed, and are unlikely to experience the kind of problems the OP complained of. OTOH they will likely curse UAC, and end up getting it disabled somehow (how many support people are going to do this immediately, just to get rid of the complaints?).
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I've put together a new computer today, dual Opteron 2.6 GHz, 2 GB RAM (ECC REG), ATI X1650 Pro, Silicon Image onboard SATA raid controller + SATA drives. Should be sufficient for Vista Ultimate. First problem was that the setup didn't had the driver for the Silicon Image RAID controller, so Setup couldn't detect the hard drives. The XP drivers didn't worked, but luckily there where some drivers for Vista Beta 2 on the Silicon Image website. Setup loaded the driver from the USB key flawlessly and the installation went smooth and fast, until the computer rebooted during the performance rating. After the reboot Vista asked me again to create a user account, unfortunately my account was already created last time and I couldn't skip the dialog, so I had to create a dummy account. Finaly Vista welcomed me with the Basic UI, because it didn't had the drivers for the X1650 Pro. Instead a "LE 750 WDDM" (or similar) driver had been installed and the PC crashed once every minute. I couldn't even install the correct driver. I've then exchanged the X1650 with a 7600GS and Vista detected the graphic card correctly and already had the drivers. Everything seemed to be fine and stable then, the performance rating was 4.2 for the graphic card, 4.9 for the memory, 5.1 for the CPUs and 5.5 for the HDs. I then started to change some settings and the screen frequently turned black and I always had to reboot. After a while I got the idea that that happens everytime after I confirmed the UAC prompt, or when the UAC prompt should have been shown. Not every time, but in about 3/4 of the cases. Luckily I was able to disable UAC using MSCONFIG and then I could change all settings without a problem. All settings but the desktop background. The screen turned black then again. I don't know wheter a new graphic card driver will solve the problem, but Vista has definitely made my day X| I'm glad that I'm sitting on my old dual P3 now, with passively cooled CPUs. Rock stable with XP SP2 and runs Vista in VMWare without a problem :rolleyes: Vista reminded me of the glorious days of Win95 A X| I'll stick with XP and Server 2003 until Longhorn Server and Vista SP1 is available. I'm not saying that Vista is a bad OS, if it would be stable and all drivers were available it would be better than XP. Well, atleast after disabling UAC, Sidebar, Windows Defender, Auto Update, ... and getting a replacement for the crippled Explorer. X|
When I upgraded my system, the first thing I did was to check if the parts I was buying were compatible and then I scanned the net for anyone having problems with those parts. Made my life a lot easier and my Vista 64 upgrade painless!
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID/CardSpace - Is it time? Latest Tech Blog Post: Scratch: fun for all ages for free!
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Interestingly, my friend was swearing at Vista just yesterday :-) We went to Bestbuy and he bought himself an iPod. Unfortunately iTunes had an incompatibility with Vista (which is what he had in his laptop). The stupid iPod does not provide a direct USB disk interface - so there was no alternate way to copy music into it. I can't believe people buy that sort of dumbed down device. Anyway we returned it and got a Samsung player - less than half the price of the iPod, works fine on Vista :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The stupid iPod does not provide a direct USB disk interface - so there was no alternate way to copy music into it.
Like the Zune and the Creative and Sony and... all of the major players do this. Only the minor players who copulate a MP3 decoder onto a USB stick allow for straight copying, like those crap Samsung devices. ;) It does suck though. I wish all the players allowed direct copying. They attempt to control the experience thinking they know best and are doing their users a favour. Every review for the Sony devices mention the terrible software and horrid conversion process that happens when you load music on to it. It is kinda sad the whole Apple vs. Microsoft thing over Vista and iTunes. Both sides are trying to shaft the other and the result is we, the people who pay them for these products, get shafted. Ugh. Grow up guys.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Are you saying that lack of Vista comparable drivers is MS fault? If yes how so? You should have verified with hardware manufacturers that they have the Vista comparable drivers before you bought your hardware. If you did it your experience with Vista would have been much smoother.
Thanks for the advice Igor. It is good advice; Everyone, hold back on installing Vista for about a year.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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When I upgraded my system, the first thing I did was to check if the parts I was buying were compatible and then I scanned the net for anyone having problems with those parts. Made my life a lot easier and my Vista 64 upgrade painless!
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID/CardSpace - Is it time? Latest Tech Blog Post: Scratch: fun for all ages for free!
Man, and this is supposed to be an OS for wide deployment on the majority of desktop systems?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Man, and this is supposed to be an OS for wide deployment on the majority of desktop systems?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Well, give it a couple years, it will be on most of the desktops, it is on mine :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID/CardSpace - Is it time? Latest Tech Blog Post: Scratch: fun for all ages for free!
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Well, give it a couple years, it will be on most of the desktops, it is on mine :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: OpenID/CardSpace - Is it time? Latest Tech Blog Post: Scratch: fun for all ages for free!
Oh sure, I have no doubt it will be. But MS could have done a better job. I think we will find Vista doesn't meet initial or long term sales forecasts. It is giving people pause for thought and in that pause allowing alternatives to step in. I won't be surprised if certain corporate customers take Vista as an opportunity to phase off of Microsoft. Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 2000. None of those have met the same level of hostility and disappointment that Vista has. Hopefully MS hits their next OS out of the park and gives me an alternative to OS X (I tried Ubuntu for a bit but didn't think it is really there for everyday work requirements.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Oh sure, I have no doubt it will be. But MS could have done a better job. I think we will find Vista doesn't meet initial or long term sales forecasts. It is giving people pause for thought and in that pause allowing alternatives to step in. I won't be surprised if certain corporate customers take Vista as an opportunity to phase off of Microsoft. Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 2000. None of those have met the same level of hostility and disappointment that Vista has. Hopefully MS hits their next OS out of the park and gives me an alternative to OS X (I tried Ubuntu for a bit but didn't think it is really there for everyday work requirements.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 2000. None of those have met the same level of hostility and disappointment that Vista has.
Heh. I've gotta say, i'm torn. On the one hand, i agree with the points Rob, CG and others are making: it is the hardware manufacturers' responsibility to get updated drivers written and released, and the work that Microsoft's done with Vista to reduce the potential problems associated with bad drivers is well worth a few years of poor driver support. On the other hand, while there've always been problems when upgrading to a new version of Windows, the ability to limp along using old drivers has really been one of the hallmarks of their consumer OS lines. Heck, Win95 could even use some real-mode DOS drivers for things like CD drives. Dodgy? You betcha! But, it got a lot of people running Win95 that never would have upgraded otherwise. And as much as i'm gonna enjoy using Vista once all the issues with drivers and other software are resolved and i've purchased new hardware, it'll probably never be an OS i'm recommending as an upgrade.
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FWIW I have installed unsigned and uncertified drivers on Vista (32 bit) without any problems. It is the 64 bit edition that enforces that restriction.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
You seemed to ask this in response to a comment about third party hardware. If you wanted to make a point, it was watered down by the moment you chose to make it. FWIW, I think Vista is a disaster, and I blame MS for it. But, third party hardware is not their fault, or their problem. Actually, I think that Vista is like a supermodel. Very nice to look at, but probably a nightmare to live with.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Vista is like a supermodel
LOL :laugh: that's sig-worthy! ... and Vista is extremly resource hungry, as are models ($$$s that is, not food... seemingly :))
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
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l a u r e n wrote:
was asking rob if he was a complete microsoft apologist i guess
No, I'm not. I likely won't install Vista on any critical work machines until after SP1 is out. On the other hand, I think people who rant on and on about how Microsoft screwed them up when in reality they made a bad decision should be called out. Anyone who is building their own box is taking a real risk that Vista will have problems, and should be prepared for that eventuality. Simple basics like checking vendor sites for updated drivers before starting an install are mandatory to have any chance of success. Even the big builders like Dell and HP are likely to have a few issues for a while, but at least they have tested all their hardware in combination before you get it. Even if you buy hardware that has a "certified for Vista" logo, you have no guarantee that the combination of components is going to play nice together. Vista has plenty of problems, UAC may turn out to be the stupidest "solution" ever implemented to address security issues (I am willing to bet 99.99% of users disable it within 1 month - or have someone disable it for them). The issues the OP is complaining about are mostly his own fault, especially give that he must have been aware that others have had problems. Still he went ahead with an install on a home-brew, custom hardware combination, without having up to date drivers for all the HW in hand. Blame Microsoft for things that are their fault, but be adult enough to take responsibility for your own stupidity.
rob im not disagreeing with you ... my point is microsoft has released this to the general public and as such it should be ready for the general public ... excuses about who is to blame for divers etc etc are irrelevant ... i think of my mom trying to get this running and the arguments for and against become clear to me at least if they say it's ready for consumers then it should be ready period
"there is no spoon" {me}
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Exactly. My main message was that it could be risky to rely on a Vista machine. I definitely wouldn't install Vista on a stable running XP system if that is your main workstation which you need for your everyday work. I would only recommend to install it on a new system and then try wheter all the drivers are available and stable and if all applications run before you format your old PC.
That's just commonsense. If you are looking to upgrade a system to a new OS, the safest way (and the one I'd always recommend) is to buy a caddy and new system drive and install the new OS on it. That way, there is no physical connection between the two OSs, and no chance of multiboot problems. Changing operating systems is simply a matter of shutting down, swapping drives and pressing the "On" button. We've one system configured this way (tri-boot between XP, Vista and Server 2003) and it spends 98% of its time booted into Vista. Nevertheless, on those rare occasions when we need to run something that isn't yet Vista capable, the other OSs are just a disk swap away. :)
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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rob im not disagreeing with you ... my point is microsoft has released this to the general public and as such it should be ready for the general public ... excuses about who is to blame for divers etc etc are irrelevant ... i think of my mom trying to get this running and the arguments for and against become clear to me at least if they say it's ready for consumers then it should be ready period
"there is no spoon" {me}
I wish it were that simple. However, my past experience suggests that third party companies never take a new OS seriously until it is publicly released. The excuse "it's still beta" is just far too easy of a cop-out. It's also funny that most of the Vista-bashers out there are saying the same about Vista that they said about XP 6 years ago, but now rave about XP. Let's face it - some people just like to bitch.
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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Oh sure, I have no doubt it will be. But MS could have done a better job. I think we will find Vista doesn't meet initial or long term sales forecasts. It is giving people pause for thought and in that pause allowing alternatives to step in. I won't be surprised if certain corporate customers take Vista as an opportunity to phase off of Microsoft. Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 2000. None of those have met the same level of hostility and disappointment that Vista has. Hopefully MS hits their next OS out of the park and gives me an alternative to OS X (I tried Ubuntu for a bit but didn't think it is really there for everyday work requirements.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 2000. None of those have met the same level of hostility and disappointment that Vista has.
Are you kidding? I remember very well the furore when XP was released. Exactly the same bitching about "Win2k is good enough. XP is crap, etc. etc.". Funnily enough it was also unstable as hell until the drivers caught up. If anything, Vista is further ahead of the game in that regard than XP was then.
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I wish it were that simple. However, my past experience suggests that third party companies never take a new OS seriously until it is publicly released. The excuse "it's still beta" is just far too easy of a cop-out. It's also funny that most of the Vista-bashers out there are saying the same about Vista that they said about XP 6 years ago, but now rave about XP. Let's face it - some people just like to bitch.
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
you know what ... i met a *very* hot girl 2nite who wanted my number i *so* dont care about vista or xp or w2k or microsoft for that matter... :rolleyes:
"there is no spoon" {me}