Who else think that the new VC.NET IDE is a big regression?
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You know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardYou know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: Who else think that the new VC.NET IDE is a big regression? Every real programmer, as opposed to the VB monkeys who will feel right at home. It looks like VB. Michel Prévost wrote: Disappearance of the Class Wizard Can't say I care about this one. I don't like the VB property page things, but I quite like adding my own methods by hand, at least I know it will be done right. Michel Prévost wrote: I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? Because we don't matter as much as the clowns who use VB. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeard -
Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardI hate it. IMO, the best feature is that it will co-exist with Visual Studio 6... so at least I can keep poking at it while I keep using VC6 for my existing projects. Regards, Larry Antram Stardust Software "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein
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Shog9 wrote: Disappearance of the Class Wizard Good ridance. I hate the class wizard. It is bulky, out of the way, pukes if you accidentally remove "special" comments, often can't deal gracefully with manual editing of the code, and generates very ugly code on it's own. It is practical to link controls to variables. Now it is a different concept, and if you want to link 15 controls, everytime it bumps you from the Dialog editor to the source code, without even putting you to the line where the variable has been defined. Previously, you could set all the variables and event handler you wanted, at once. Shog9 wrote: The integration of the solution files with VSS IMO, VSS integration is much improved. It still could be better, but i'm inclined to blame the limitations of VSS, not VS.NET. And connecting/disconnecting projects is much, much clearer. The problem here is when I want many projects within a solution, it wants to check out the solution. Previously, there was only a workspace, and it was not integrated with VSS. Only the projects were. Shog9 wrote: No more "Set as Active Project" Merely a different term. With the same idea, they coould have renamed the "debug" menu to "resolve issues", the "project" menum "babebibobu". Why not? Merely different terms. What about user experience? Shog9 wrote: So you don't like VB. It really doesn't effect much. I didn't say that. I don't know what is you smoke, but I want 2 pounds of it ;P Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: Previously, you could set all the variables and event handler you wanted, at once. Yeah, that was kinda handy, although i never got much use out of it because of the problems i mentioned earlier. Personally, i don't use linked variables all that heavily; 5 control variables is a lot on one dialog for me. Michel Prévost wrote: The problem here is when I want many projects within a solution, it wants to check out the solution. I haven't had this happen, but still, how often do you add new projects to a solution? Michel Prévost wrote: With the same idea, they coould have renamed the "debug" menu to "resolve issues", the "project" menum "babebibobu". But, they did not. The term "Active Project" comes from VB (and Interdev) along several other concepts. Personally, the change in terminology will not have a great impact on my life. If you don't like the interface, that's fine; but you did ask for comment, so i gave it. IMO, the VS.NET interface is lacking in many ways, but so was the VS6 interface... Apart from Intellisense, i've been fairly unhappy with both, and probably will continue to be for many years to come. MS can change the interface every 6 months for all i care, if each change brings them even slightly closer to getting it right. --------
This is what we've waited for This is it boys, this is War!
--Shog9 --
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardI think the changes in the IDE are for the bether... but but the problem are the bugs many, many ide bugs , and i dont know why, when i create a class from a new dialog resource ,the .h and .cpp keep going to the res folder :confused: this is realy bad because i am using VSS and those files will be replicated to the outher programmer when they get last version it is the same with the outher programmer since they move to .NET , so i think is not sometink that i doing wrong the class view is allways refresing itseft when you are coding X| and the VSS integration is slower Casa.Sapo.pt
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardWhy was the class wizard removed ? I thought the idea was to have more options on how to do stuff. True the class wizard was buggy. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardWell I got to say .... I like it!! I can change the look and feel and after I got used to it, feels like I have been using it for ever. I don't remember Visual Studio 6 anymore. Is that bad? :-O Al
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardMichel Prévost wrote: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard Thank god that monstruosity is gone. Never used it. You're probably missing it because VS.NET is missing the visual designer for C++. I heard it should be available towards the end of the year. Michel Prévost wrote: - The Class View that constantly change the focus OK. A bug, not like VS6 wasn't plagued with bugs. SP1 should fix it. Michel Prévost wrote: - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) That's your opinion and your entitled to it. It doesn't make a difference to me. Michel Prévost wrote: - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) Again, it's your opinion but for me it's not even worth mentioning. Anyway NMAKE and Notepad are still available... be my guest! ;-)
Eddie Velasquez: A Squeezed Devil (Don't you just love that anagram craze?)
Checkout GUIDGen.NET -
You know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. And they say computer programmers are logical.... No, VC++ 1.x was much worse than VC++ 2.x and up. I think that was pretty much universally accepted. It improved through v 5, stalled in V6, then bagan a nosedive in v 7
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardVC 7 is a piece of crap. The only thing good about it is that it serves as a good example of bad UI design.. specifically, how the change from a UI that is custom-designe to do specific tasks, to a more generalized UI, can be a very bad thing. Even when the egregious bugs are fixed, it will be a poor alternative to VC6.
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeard.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
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Examples: - Disappearance of the Class Wizard - The Class View that constantly change the focus - The integration of the solution files with VSS (I better liked the Workspace concept) - No more "Set as Active Project" (yeah, I know of the "Set as Startup Project", but "startup" don't mean active in my book) - A lot more.... I know that the IDE incorporated some nice new features, but why did they drop the other ones? And the class view navigator sucks, IMHO. Michel It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a very long time to say, and to listen to.
- TreeBeardIt looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. The only thing I had noticed was the "Set as Active Progect" being gone, but that didn't bother me much. The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. As for the class wizard, I never liked that crazy thing anyway. :eek: -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
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.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
Jim A. Johnson wrote: given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, ALthough this may well be true, we should not discuss it. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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.. I know that this is unlikely, given the incestuous relationshp between MS and CP, but this would be a really good poll. VS.NET: Abomination, or just plain Bad? :') Seriously, a more neutral title would be a good idea.
I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
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You know, having used Visual C++ for something like 10 years, I've gone through many changes. Each time, there are a bunch of people that scream about how the changes suck and how the new compiler/ide/help/tools/etc.. are worse than before. Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form. If all these people were correct, then 10 years of bad changes should have made it far worse. My conclusion: People don't like change. Those that were used to the previous version dislike changing the way they work. Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse. That's not to say that I don't think the current IDE has flaws. It does, but those can and probably will be addressed over time. We know that there are compiler and probably IDE changes coming down the line, and service packs are almost a certainty. Nothing is ever perfect, and 1.0 products are usually worse than most. I think the new IDE is a huge step forward in many ways: I like the auto-hide docking bars for instance, this clears up a ton of screen real estate. I like the new "task" view, and I like the new help system. -- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Yet somehow, when I look at the latest version, then compare it to VC++ 1.0 I can't say that VC 1.0 was better than what we have today in any way, shape, or form I've also been using this product since 1.0 and if the best anyone can say is that the current product isn't worse than it was 10 years ago, why change it? Erik Funkenbusch wrote: Those that have never used the previous version will find the current version good and when the next set of changes come along, will bitch about how they are worse It's not about the simple inconvenience of learning something new. The bigger issue is one of retraining. This cost time and money and without a measurable gain in the improvement of the product, it's a waste of time and money. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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Why was the class wizard removed ? I thought the idea was to have more options on how to do stuff. True the class wizard was buggy. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
The ClassWizard was not removed. It's just in a different place, looks different and has some of its functionality moved to other areas of the IDE. In other words, MS UI designers justifying their jobs by moving bits around. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE. The only thing I had noticed was the "Set as Active Progect" being gone, but that didn't bother me much. The space is used so much more effectively in VS.NET. I used to run in 1920x1440 resolution in VS 6 just so I could get a decent amount of screen area. With VS.NET I can back down to 1600x1200 and have more space than I had with VS 6 in the higher resolution. As for the class wizard, I never liked that crazy thing anyway. :eek: -- Dana Holt Xenos Software
Dana Holt wrote: It looks like I am the minority, but I really like the new IDE That's ok. In about 2 years it'll be redesigned for a completely new look and feel by a new batch of UI designers wanting to put their mark on the product. Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible
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I'd hardly call CPs relationship with MS as incestuous. They appreciate that we're pure MS, but there certainly is no puppetry going on here. You're right, maybe we should have a poll. The salient point is, I think, the poll should be constructive. What exactly sucks and not 'it all sucks so don't upgrade' I know lots of people who work on the IDE, and I'm sure Chris does as well. What exactly do you like and dislike? David http://www.dundas.com
Main dislike? The fact that it was dramatically changed without a clear cut case for creating a more productive environment. I know that's old-fashioned since it has "cool toolbars and menus", but my clients don't pay me to learn new UIs. They pay me to code. Specific dislikes (These are some of the ones off the top of my head) 1) Changing a resource (such as the aboutbox template) won't result in a recompile 2) No longer can align controls with ctrl-arrow keys 3) Project dependencies easily get hosed so that it never thinks it's up to date 4) Can't close windows by hitting Esc. Have to manually click the X to close them. 5) Task list always getting in the way during debugs Cheers, Tom Archer Author - Inside C#, Visual C++.NET Bible