Is this normal teenage behavior?
-
code-frog wrote:
Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume.
Actually none of the people I was thinking about "struggle with alcohol addiction". Not everyone who drinks when they are teenagers turns into an alcoholic.
code-frog wrote:
very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically). My point was that finding out that your child drinks is not unusual or anything to really get freaked out about.
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
Again not going to go much past this reply but this statement:
Warren Stevens wrote:
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically).
Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol[^]
-
Hey! I DID go to bandcamp...twice actually.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
Do you play the flute? :~
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Warren Stevens wrote:
Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc)
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school. Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs, but there is a far better chance that the dead ones or the ones in jail would have turned out better without it.
You may be right
I may be crazy
-- Billy Joel --Within you lies the power for good, use it!!!
PJ Arends wrote:
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school.
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
PJ Arends wrote:
Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs
That's very close to my point. In my experience the use of alcohol/drugs had virtually zero bearing on "success" later in life (compared to the level of education of the parents, which I have seen to play a major role in determining the success of children). The idea that everyone is just a few drinks away from jail or death is simply not the case.
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
-
PJ Arends wrote:
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school.
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
PJ Arends wrote:
Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs
That's very close to my point. In my experience the use of alcohol/drugs had virtually zero bearing on "success" later in life (compared to the level of education of the parents, which I have seen to play a major role in determining the success of children). The idea that everyone is just a few drinks away from jail or death is simply not the case.
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
-
Again not going to go much past this reply but this statement:
Warren Stevens wrote:
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically).
Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol[^]
code-frog wrote:
Warren Stevens wrote: Alcohol is not addictive (chemically). Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol\[^\]
No, Warren is correct. Alcohol does not create a chemical addiction, though in terms of real world effects, it's a distinction without a difference. In the end, Alcohol abuse causes more damage and harm than any other abusable substance. (In moderation, there is strong evidence it can be good for you but the benefits aren't worth the risk of starting to drink.) (For the record, I'm a life-long teetotaler. The closest I've come to drinking is licking some mint julip off a finger tip once. Funny thing is, I've never had the desire to drink and never even liked the smell of alcohol. I still don't.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
-
Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
Orcrist wrote:
One died in a car crash (drinking and driving)
There was plenty of drinking (and drugs) in my high school, but very little drinking-and-driving (i.e. probably a lower level than I've seen in the general adult population)
Orcrist wrote:
this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community
Sounds mostly like the community I went to school in(Aurora, which is about 40km north of Toronto)
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
-
Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
There was a lot of drinking in my High School, though I never did any. I do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice. Unfortunately, in my junior year two students were killed by a drunk driver and as was the former center of our football team a year after we graduated.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
-
Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithSteiner Waldorf ways not working? Maybe the code of practice needs to be enforced more. Source http://www.steinerwaldorf.org.uk/documents.htm[^] 4.2 Discipline Basic practice a. The school will have a behaviour and discipline policy which is clearly supported by suitable procedures which are age appropriate and implemented by all members of staff. b. Disciplinary matters arising in each department of the school (Kg, lower school etc) are reviewed and discussed by the relevant staff (e.g. weekly). c. Procedures will cover informing parents at the earliest stage (in many cases on the same day). d. Class teachers and guardians will inform all staff of particular special needs that may have an effect on behaviour. e. There will be a policy and procedures for drugs and substance abuse by pupils. Anyhow Marc, I'm sure things are not too bad otherwise your language would be more seething.
-
There was a lot of drinking in my High School, though I never did any. I do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice. Unfortunately, in my junior year two students were killed by a drunk driver and as was the former center of our football team a year after we graduated.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice.
Thats pretty responsible. My High School (early 80's) certainly was not that progressive / responsible and we were just on the cusp (as I recall) of the start of the Drinking Driving Counterattack programs and the whole Aids scare. The alcohol use doesnt terribly concern me but that Ecstacy sh#t, I admit, really scares the bejesus out of me (in concern for my daughters) as it is apparently cheap, extremely addicting, and damaging. But my parents certainly had their own things to worry about. David
-
Joe Woodbury wrote:
do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice.
Thats pretty responsible. My High School (early 80's) certainly was not that progressive / responsible and we were just on the cusp (as I recall) of the start of the Drinking Driving Counterattack programs and the whole Aids scare. The alcohol use doesnt terribly concern me but that Ecstacy sh#t, I admit, really scares the bejesus out of me (in concern for my daughters) as it is apparently cheap, extremely addicting, and damaging. But my parents certainly had their own things to worry about. David
Actually this was in the late 70s. We had no programs, official or otherwise, and the administration never brought it up. We were given a huge amount of latitude, especially compared to the over controlling schools of today and I think that was a big part of it. Seriously; I grew up in a era where children were given a lot more trust than today and I think it paid off. (I'm also convinced that increasing the drinking age to 21 and demonizing sex to the degree it has happened has done more harm than good.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
-
Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom
What?! Like a dog out of the bowl!? :-D :doh:
Marc Clifton wrote:
Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know)
My school had class trips all over. If I'd taken the appropriate subjects I could have had the choice of France, Germany, Belgium, Italy or Canada. As it was, the only class that I was in that qualified for an overseas trips was French. (I also remember one of the music classes going off to Austria once too) I went to a little town in the Loire called Bléré
Marc Clifton wrote:
trip to Italy had several incidences of drinking
That was the highlight of the French trip. Discovering at 14 that it was okay to buy wine in a supermarket. And it only cost 5F70 (57p or $1) for a bottle. Tastes like fermeted vinegar. I've never liked wine since. The folks on the German trip discovered that 1DM coin was similar enough to a 10p coin (but worth 3 times more) that vending machines would accept them.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: AJAX, SQL Server, Mock Objects My: Website | Blog | Photos
-
Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMy high school class had a kid arrested for shooting heroin in the bathroom. Of course, this was in the decadent late 70's, so...
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I place it on the shoulders of the fifteen and sixteen year olds.
Good point. The parents can't do much at this point anyways. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithFirst of all, I'm not the one who 1-voted you on this one.
Marc Clifton wrote:
The parents can't do much at this point anyways.
I have to disagree. If you really believe that "parents can't do much at this point", then you've given up, which your kid will sense immediately. I firmly believe that you can not, must not, ever let your kid feel like you've given up on them. This belief stems from my own personal experience. I was the 'good kid' and my brother was the 'bad kid' in our family. My brother has turned out OK, but he's had lots of issues that I think wouldn't have happened if my mother would have been more persistent.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Depends on how you define normal. In my home... no that would not be normal. Not that I plan on being mega-strict. I don't at all. I plan on discussing things with my kids to the point they understand them fully. If my kids choose to drink and be sexually active there's not much I can do by that time so I won't go off and become mega-strict to stop it. But my definition of those behaviors is that no it isn't normal. The drinking age is 21 in Idaho drinking at that point in time (if you feel the need to) is normal behavior. I've never drank in my life and after watching alcoholism destroy one family and kill a few friends on the road I've concluded that alcohol is the worst thing to ever happen to the U.S. and the fact it's legal (while killing so many people every year) baffles me. So... nope! Not normal. Irresponsible, immature and worthy of a nice long and friendly chat. I don't believe that when your kids are teenagers you should use intimidation or an over-bearing method to try and sway them. You have to inform them concisely and trust them to make a *good* choice and that definition of *good* will vary for certain. I had the time of my life as a teenager. I did it soberly and without sex and I remember all of it and have stories my peers now wish they had. We hiked, raced mountain bikes, swept soccer tournaments and had one amazing experience after the next. That's the stuff that seems normal to me but then again most have never considered me normal so take my comments with a grain of salt. I'm probably stuffy and old school by most standards...:rose:
My dad was the mega strict intimidation type. It tought me to be super sly and careful. When I wanted to do something my dad wouldn't approve of I would fully review the situation I'm about to take part in and try to determine every outcome possible for every action I would take and try to "formulate" the safest actions that would be easy to cover up and keep secrete. This skill is a must if you plan on creating a successful lie also. You can try to limit your child's behaviors but if you go overboard you will either make your child miserable or very cunning. -- modified at 21:20 Wednesday 7th March, 2007
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
-
Steve Hazel wrote:
For my daughter, it all hit RIGHT at 13.
You're lucky, since my oldest girl was born, she wanted to be eighteen. Fortunately, our youngest, also a girl, now eleven, is pretty much the opposite. On the flip side, my almost nineteen-year-old not only just got her hair cutting license, but announced she's going to start college in the fall studying accounting. (Yes, we almost rushed her to Area 51 to make sure she wasn't an alien who had taken over her body:)) Now if only her fifteen year old brother would grow up....
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
if only her fifteen year old brother would grow up....
Boys should be nailed into barrels at age 10 and shipped off to a storage facility until they are 25. Girls just might be okay. Of course, I might be just a wee bit biased, since I have the world's Most Perfect Daughter ;).
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I'm in no way wanting to start a soapy war at all. Your comments just made me want to add this for other readers. Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume. Again, I don't add that to be argumentive just to point out that there's a flawed assumption in your statement that overlooks a very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
code-frog wrote:
Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction?
I have used a variety of chemical substances including the EXTREMELY ADDICTIVE amphetamines. Alcohol is one of the chemicals I have used. I think alcoholism is a serious problem as I have witnessed a family member SEVERELY abuse alcohol with Xanax to an extent that made my jaw drop. Using alcohol will not get you addicted unless you severely abuse it on a frequent basis for a very long period of time. I have drank plenty of times and I do enjoy it but I avoid it because it prevents me from thinking clearly. I prefer caffeine.
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
-
My dad was the mega strict intimidation type. It tought me to be super sly and careful. When I wanted to do something my dad wouldn't approve of I would fully review the situation I'm about to take part in and try to determine every outcome possible for every action I would take and try to "formulate" the safest actions that would be easy to cover up and keep secrete. This skill is a must if you plan on creating a successful lie also. You can try to limit your child's behaviors but if you go overboard you will either make your child miserable or very cunning. -- modified at 21:20 Wednesday 7th March, 2007
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
Yeah and as soon as they move out they're going to do it all anyways. So you can put them in a steel box if you want but it's not going to matter one bit. Soon as they move out they're going to do all the stuff you never let them do and most of it because you never let them do it and not really because they want to. You put that much of a wall around your kids and they will look forward to the day where than can rub it in your face. I had as much freedom as I wanted and I just took it slow and easy. Ate a lot of bean burritos and had a good time.:cool:
-
code-frog wrote:
Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction?
I have used a variety of chemical substances including the EXTREMELY ADDICTIVE amphetamines. Alcohol is one of the chemicals I have used. I think alcoholism is a serious problem as I have witnessed a family member SEVERELY abuse alcohol with Xanax to an extent that made my jaw drop. Using alcohol will not get you addicted unless you severely abuse it on a frequent basis for a very long period of time. I have drank plenty of times and I do enjoy it but I avoid it because it prevents me from thinking clearly. I prefer caffeine.
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██
MMMMM! Caffeine.:-D I haven't slept since Monday night. Tell me about caffeine...:sigh:
-
Warren Stevens wrote:
Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc)
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school. Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs, but there is a far better chance that the dead ones or the ones in jail would have turned out better without it.
You may be right
I may be crazy
-- Billy Joel --Within you lies the power for good, use it!!!
Yah Mon!:rose:
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered process, husband to a murdered thread. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next. - Gladiator I work to live. I do not live to work. My clients do not seem capable of grasping this fact.
-
Yeah and as soon as they move out they're going to do it all anyways. So you can put them in a steel box if you want but it's not going to matter one bit. Soon as they move out they're going to do all the stuff you never let them do and most of it because you never let them do it and not really because they want to. You put that much of a wall around your kids and they will look forward to the day where than can rub it in your face. I had as much freedom as I wanted and I just took it slow and easy. Ate a lot of bean burritos and had a good time.:cool:
code-frog wrote:
Yeah and as soon as they move out they're going to do it all anyways. So you can put them in a steel box if you want but it's not going to matter one bit. Soon as they move out they're going to do all the stuff you never let them do and most of it because you never let them do it and not really because they want to. You put that much of a wall around your kids and they will look forward to the day where than can rub it in your face.
Yeah, the best thing to do is teach them right from wrong and make sure they know the reasons why they shouldn't do certain things. You should not be totally passive though, discipline is a must and you need to start early and as long as you don't go overboard your kids will be happy and respectful (at least I would).
█▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒██████▒█▒██ █▒█████▒▒▒▒▒█ █▒▒▒▒▒██▒█▒██