Is this normal teenage behavior?
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Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithFrom everything I heard it doesn't sound terribly out of line for that age bracket. My girls are still younger (12 and 10) but my wife and I spend a great deal of effort trying to convince them to being leaders and not followers (we call it leaders and sheep) so that (hopefully) they will be independent and strong enough to resist the peer pressure to do things that they know in their heart is not appropriate. The other thing we focus on is problem solving and trying to get them to put aside emotions when they are presented with a problem and need to think it through. They routinely work through these steps: 1) What is the Problem? 2) Is it really a problem? (often it isn't) 3) What is the solution to the problem? From my viewpoint "everything" is a problem to be solved (some more important than others). If they can rationally solve the problems they run into (drinking, drugs, sex, bullying, schoolwork, peers, etc.) then hopefully they will get through the invincible teen years relatively unscathed. I think you have to start young with this approach because they sure wont listen to you when they are older. And I agree it sure isnt the responsibility of the school to teach this (but they sure can help with the process if they buy into it) Hopefully we successfully provided the girls with the tools in the toolbox to manage the challenges in life. Time will tell. Cheers, David
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Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithThat all sounds like very typical teenage behaviour where I went to high school (in Aurora, an upper-middle-class suburb of Toronto) in the early 1990's I can't remember a single dance where there wasn't someone who spent the night in the washroom wishing they hadn't had too much to drink. And there was also a large portion of the school that "put the high in high-school". Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc), so don't think that it will all end in disaster... :)
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents
I place it on the shoulders of the fifteen and sixteen year olds. After a certain point, there isn't a whole hell of a lot you can do as a parent. My wife and prepared, and are still preparing, our kids the best we can then just cross our fingers. (And, hopefully, you don't have a teenager like my oldest. Thankfully, she didn't quite go completely over the edge like too many of her friends--for one, I'm still not a grandfather.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I place it on the shoulders of the fifteen and sixteen year olds
Yep. They ain't babies no more. You've (hopefully) done all you could =well= before this point. For my daughter, it all hit RIGHT at 13. Well, we had rumbles before that, but she basically blew the hell apart. It started simmering down at 15, and now it's basically just dome building activity... Mostly about boyfriends and household rules and the constant yelling she can do - hoo boy.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
for one, I'm still not a grandfather
Preach it !! Thank god for birth control...:(( Sometimes it's mighty hard bein' a Dad... Almost as hard as it was bein THAT age. Wouldn't wanna go thru THAT again... ...Steve
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That all sounds like very typical teenage behaviour where I went to high school (in Aurora, an upper-middle-class suburb of Toronto) in the early 1990's I can't remember a single dance where there wasn't someone who spent the night in the washroom wishing they hadn't had too much to drink. And there was also a large portion of the school that "put the high in high-school". Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc), so don't think that it will all end in disaster... :)
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I'm in no way wanting to start a soapy war at all. Your comments just made me want to add this for other readers. Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume. Again, I don't add that to be argumentive just to point out that there's a flawed assumption in your statement that overlooks a very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
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This one time, at band camp...
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Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithIn my experience (public highschool in suburban/rural Georgia), it sounds like that's a relatively tame bunch of HS kids :) I myself didn't drink but a few times in HS (I hung out with the "smart" crowd, not the "cool" crowd, although they intersected a bit sometimes). I had a few friends who did a good bit of drinking towards the end of HS, and there were plenty more where that came from. There's even a picture of the "cool" crowds's drinking shack in my senior-year annual. I saved all of my drinking for my freshman and first sophomore year in college. At the start of my second sophomore year, I got a friendly letter from college saying that if I didn't get my grades up they were going to stop cashing my tuition checks. Bit of wake-up call there :laugh:. I actually wish I'd done more partying in HS, as I would have got it out of my system (and figured out how to deal with it) before I hit college, and I'd have been able to get my college degree with honors instead of being 2 tenths of a point shy. Crap - my GPA in college was under 3.00 from my third quarter freshman year until AFTER my grades were posted for my final semester 5 years later (3.01)! :laugh:
"I hope he can see this, because I'm doing it as hard as I can" - Ignignot
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Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithOkay, my theory. If you have a 'wild' kid, no matter how much you try to teach them the principles, they will get into some trouble. Quiet kids you usually don't have a problem. There was no alcohol in my house. I learned about sex from late night HBO. My parents did not prepare me for anything. Plus it was a bad environment so I was a prime candidate for becoming 'troubled.' But I didn't. I didn't drink until I went to Australia in high school, and even after that I went to only two high school drinking parties (including the senior kegger). I drank in college--I was a bit severe in my freshman year. I've never tried pot or even cigarettes. Then I look at my classmate Danny. He comes from a prominent family of do-gooders. But Danny was the odd-ball. He constantly got into trouble including a high speed car chase during his junior year and in college he and his brother set off bottle rockets from a pipe while they were in a boat on the lake. One hit a 25 year old lady who had to have a hysterectomy and has hip problems. I think most kids are in the middle. They want to try, they want to fit it. It takes an awfully strong teenager to rise above the peer pressure. Unless it's YOUR kid caught in the bathroom I wouldn't worry. But then again, I don't have kids. And just an FYI, cockatoos don't like beer. Oh, and don't drink and combine at the same time.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
I place it on the shoulders of the fifteen and sixteen year olds
Yep. They ain't babies no more. You've (hopefully) done all you could =well= before this point. For my daughter, it all hit RIGHT at 13. Well, we had rumbles before that, but she basically blew the hell apart. It started simmering down at 15, and now it's basically just dome building activity... Mostly about boyfriends and household rules and the constant yelling she can do - hoo boy.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
for one, I'm still not a grandfather
Preach it !! Thank god for birth control...:(( Sometimes it's mighty hard bein' a Dad... Almost as hard as it was bein THAT age. Wouldn't wanna go thru THAT again... ...Steve
Steve Hazel wrote:
For my daughter, it all hit RIGHT at 13.
You're lucky, since my oldest girl was born, she wanted to be eighteen. Fortunately, our youngest, also a girl, now eleven, is pretty much the opposite. On the flip side, my almost nineteen-year-old not only just got her hair cutting license, but announced she's going to start college in the fall studying accounting. (Yes, we almost rushed her to Area 51 to make sure she wasn't an alien who had taken over her body:)) Now if only her fifteen year old brother would grow up....
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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That all sounds like very typical teenage behaviour where I went to high school (in Aurora, an upper-middle-class suburb of Toronto) in the early 1990's I can't remember a single dance where there wasn't someone who spent the night in the washroom wishing they hadn't had too much to drink. And there was also a large portion of the school that "put the high in high-school". Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc), so don't think that it will all end in disaster... :)
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Warren Stevens wrote:
Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc)
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school. Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs, but there is a far better chance that the dead ones or the ones in jail would have turned out better without it.
You may be right
I may be crazy
-- Billy Joel --Within you lies the power for good, use it!!!
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I'm in no way wanting to start a soapy war at all. Your comments just made me want to add this for other readers. Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume. Again, I don't add that to be argumentive just to point out that there's a flawed assumption in your statement that overlooks a very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
code-frog wrote:
Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume.
Actually none of the people I was thinking about "struggle with alcohol addiction". Not everyone who drinks when they are teenagers turns into an alcoholic.
code-frog wrote:
very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically). My point was that finding out that your child drinks is not unusual or anything to really get freaked out about.
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code-frog wrote:
Many of them may be doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors and engineers but how many of them also struggle with alcohol addiction? That's the one thing you don't have to put on a job application or resume.
Actually none of the people I was thinking about "struggle with alcohol addiction". Not everyone who drinks when they are teenagers turns into an alcoholic.
code-frog wrote:
very important detail of alcohol abuse and that detail would be addiction.
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically). My point was that finding out that your child drinks is not unusual or anything to really get freaked out about.
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Again not going to go much past this reply but this statement:
Warren Stevens wrote:
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically).
Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol[^]
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Hey! I DID go to bandcamp...twice actually.
_________________________________________ You can't fix stupid, but you can medicate crazy.
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Warren Stevens wrote:
Many of them are doctors, lawyers, MBAs, professors, engineers (etc)
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school. Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs, but there is a far better chance that the dead ones or the ones in jail would have turned out better without it.
You may be right
I may be crazy
-- Billy Joel --Within you lies the power for good, use it!!!
PJ Arends wrote:
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school.
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
PJ Arends wrote:
Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs
That's very close to my point. In my experience the use of alcohol/drugs had virtually zero bearing on "success" later in life (compared to the level of education of the parents, which I have seen to play a major role in determining the success of children). The idea that everyone is just a few drinks away from jail or death is simply not the case.
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PJ Arends wrote:
True, but some are jail, and others did not live long enough to graduate from high school.
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
PJ Arends wrote:
Chances are the successful ones would still have been successful without the alcohol and drugs
That's very close to my point. In my experience the use of alcohol/drugs had virtually zero bearing on "success" later in life (compared to the level of education of the parents, which I have seen to play a major role in determining the success of children). The idea that everyone is just a few drinks away from jail or death is simply not the case.
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Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
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Again not going to go much past this reply but this statement:
Warren Stevens wrote:
Alcohol is not addictive (chemically).
Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol[^]
code-frog wrote:
Warren Stevens wrote: Alcohol is not addictive (chemically). Is utterly false. http://www.addictionrecov.org/cdwhat.htm#alcohol\[^\]
No, Warren is correct. Alcohol does not create a chemical addiction, though in terms of real world effects, it's a distinction without a difference. In the end, Alcohol abuse causes more damage and harm than any other abusable substance. (In moderation, there is strong evidence it can be good for you but the benefits aren't worth the risk of starting to drink.) (For the record, I'm a life-long teetotaler. The closest I've come to drinking is licking some mint julip off a finger tip once. Funny thing is, I've never had the desire to drink and never even liked the smell of alcohol. I still don't.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
Orcrist wrote:
One died in a car crash (drinking and driving)
There was plenty of drinking (and drugs) in my high school, but very little drinking-and-driving (i.e. probably a lower level than I've seen in the general adult population)
Orcrist wrote:
this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community
Sounds mostly like the community I went to school in(Aurora, which is about 40km north of Toronto)
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Warren Stevens wrote:
Nobody from my school died from drinking (or anything else, for that matter).
I saw both types. - One died from alcohol (choked to death on their own vomit) - One died in a car crash (drinking and driving) - One overdose (drugs) And this wasn't an urban school. It was a school in a rural middle income suburban community. I guess you were just lucky. Cheers, David
There was a lot of drinking in my High School, though I never did any. I do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice. Unfortunately, in my junior year two students were killed by a drunk driver and as was the former center of our football team a year after we graduated.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Let's see. Monday a kid in 10th grade was caught drinking in the bathroom and suspended for a week. Last week, two kids skipped P.E. and were suspended for a day (seems a bit harsh there). Last year's senior class trip to Italy (yeah, wow, I know) had several incidences of drinking. Last year, most of the senior class was caught drinking around a bonfire (without permission for that) on school grounds (by the lake) at 11:30 PM. It seems I've picked a Waldorf school that is apparently known for its highschool drinking issues. Anyways, what's your experience with your kid(s) in highschool and their peers? Is this typical? Especially, is it typical for a private school? Granted, parents often choose Waldorf as the last option/hope for their already screwed up kid (I place the responsibility of all of this behavior squarely on the shoulders of the parents, BTW, not the school). Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithSteiner Waldorf ways not working? Maybe the code of practice needs to be enforced more. Source http://www.steinerwaldorf.org.uk/documents.htm[^] 4.2 Discipline Basic practice a. The school will have a behaviour and discipline policy which is clearly supported by suitable procedures which are age appropriate and implemented by all members of staff. b. Disciplinary matters arising in each department of the school (Kg, lower school etc) are reviewed and discussed by the relevant staff (e.g. weekly). c. Procedures will cover informing parents at the earliest stage (in many cases on the same day). d. Class teachers and guardians will inform all staff of particular special needs that may have an effect on behaviour. e. There will be a policy and procedures for drugs and substance abuse by pupils. Anyhow Marc, I'm sure things are not too bad otherwise your language would be more seething.
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There was a lot of drinking in my High School, though I never did any. I do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice. Unfortunately, in my junior year two students were killed by a drunk driver and as was the former center of our football team a year after we graduated.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice.
Thats pretty responsible. My High School (early 80's) certainly was not that progressive / responsible and we were just on the cusp (as I recall) of the start of the Drinking Driving Counterattack programs and the whole Aids scare. The alcohol use doesnt terribly concern me but that Ecstacy sh#t, I admit, really scares the bejesus out of me (in concern for my daughters) as it is apparently cheap, extremely addicting, and damaging. But my parents certainly had their own things to worry about. David
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
do recall several of the ring leaders doing condom checks and designated driver checks on Friday nights after track practice.
Thats pretty responsible. My High School (early 80's) certainly was not that progressive / responsible and we were just on the cusp (as I recall) of the start of the Drinking Driving Counterattack programs and the whole Aids scare. The alcohol use doesnt terribly concern me but that Ecstacy sh#t, I admit, really scares the bejesus out of me (in concern for my daughters) as it is apparently cheap, extremely addicting, and damaging. But my parents certainly had their own things to worry about. David
Actually this was in the late 70s. We had no programs, official or otherwise, and the administration never brought it up. We were given a huge amount of latitude, especially compared to the over controlling schools of today and I think that was a big part of it. Seriously; I grew up in a era where children were given a lot more trust than today and I think it paid off. (I'm also convinced that increasing the drinking age to 21 and demonizing sex to the degree it has happened has done more harm than good.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke