Specialty GIS Development Job Market Observation [modified]
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
then have application development experts like me
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it. ;P
led mike
led mike wrote:
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it.
Actually, not. That's mainly what I do and I'm damn good at it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a reluctance to classify programmers beyond those who do drivers and those who don't. You don't ask a mechanical engineer to work as an electrical engineer, so why ask both to be software engineers? But, my complaint about graduate snobs are the people who get all indignant when working with people who don't have a CS degree, let alone a graduate CS degree. Or who block them from even being hired in the first place. I know there are exceptions, but I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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led mike wrote:
Well at least you aren't being a snob about it.
Actually, not. That's mainly what I do and I'm damn good at it. Unfortunately, there seems to be a reluctance to classify programmers beyond those who do drivers and those who don't. You don't ask a mechanical engineer to work as an electrical engineer, so why ask both to be software engineers? But, my complaint about graduate snobs are the people who get all indignant when working with people who don't have a CS degree, let alone a graduate CS degree. Or who block them from even being hired in the first place. I know there are exceptions, but I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
People with PhDs are not intended to work in the real world even though some jobs require it. They are really intended to teach.
CleaKO
"I think you'll be okay here, they have a thin candy shell. 'Surprised you didn't know that.'" - Tommy (Tommy Boy)
"Fill it up again! Fill it up again! Once it hits your lips, it's so good!" - Frank the Tank (Old School) -
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere.
The biggest problem is businesses who want pre-qualified and experienced programmers. Not home-taught, but not train on site, but experienced people. This is difficult if none of the specialty markets want to train. How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim. I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim.
Schools who do teach GIS focus on training analysts. In my grad program I had to fight tooth and nail to get classes in CS and CIS accepted as legitimate classes for my degree. Out of 20 graduates and 50 undergraduates, I was the only one with a clue how to program or work with software.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them.
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
I've never worked with a PhD software engineer who wasn't completely worthless.
People with PhDs are not intended to work in the real world even though some jobs require it. They are really intended to teach.
CleaKO
"I think you'll be okay here, they have a thin candy shell. 'Surprised you didn't know that.'" - Tommy (Tommy Boy)
"Fill it up again! Fill it up again! Once it hits your lips, it's so good!" - Frank the Tank (Old School) -
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
If only it were that simple. Most of the GIS base application code requires the complete use of the GIS libraries for their implementation. I wish sometimes it was that simple, but spatial applications usually require almost all spatial developed solutions. Also, the development of the geographic components are the core development processes behind the applications. If only it were that simple:-D
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
How many people here know of a school that gives a specialized degree in GIS technologies? how many employ a co-op such that the student exits with both a specialized degree and experience? If the employer isn't willing to take someone with the skills, and teach them the specialty, then the pickings are slim.
Schools who do teach GIS focus on training analysts. In my grad program I had to fight tooth and nail to get classes in CS and CIS accepted as legitimate classes for my degree. Out of 20 graduates and 50 undergraduates, I was the only one with a clue how to program or work with software.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I've had this discussion with our management. Our last programmer had a few weeks of OpenGL programming experience at his house, for fun, nothing paid, but he had the math skills and programming knowledge to learn the trade. In fact I would rather it that way, it is easier for me to teach what I know if I don't have to unteach them what someone else taught them.
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
like us! ;) We make the GIS fun. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
unfortunately the field has tons of people who know very little code that actually hack some VB together to create applications.
Well since you sugar coated it like that, where can I sign up! :laugh:
led mike
Try finding some stuff on ESRI development sites and then tell me if you are really committed. I often end up working with little to no documentation and comment less code examples. The company has always been terrible with this. Also, there is little to none community of developers in this area. You sure you wanna try:laugh:
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
We and others I have talked with have tried this approach as well, but often, by the time we have spent a couple of months just training them with the basics, they leave, sometimes to go work with non GIS technologies as it requires less or work.
like us! ;) We make the GIS fun. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Exactly!!! You from NM, what part?
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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If only it were that simple. Most of the GIS base application code requires the complete use of the GIS libraries for their implementation. I wish sometimes it was that simple, but spatial applications usually require almost all spatial developed solutions. Also, the development of the geographic components are the core development processes behind the applications. If only it were that simple:-D
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
Most of the GIS base application code requires the complete use of the GIS libraries for their implementation.
Perhaps that's part of the problem. I'm being quite serious since I've both dealt with, and caused, problems like this before. When specialists write software they tend to expose too much of its inner workings throughout the application. This isn't out of malice, but usually because they have to get their work done and take the path of least resistance. Of course, I'm asking the impossible--for management to actually give the time to fundamentally rethink how the software is designed and then to implement a new design.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers
What's the difference. I used to "do" GIS. From 1994 to 2003. I don't see the difference between developing against a spatially aware database and a regular one. You still have a set of business rules to contend with, you still have managers wanting things yesterday, you still have users that are unsatisfied because the software doesn't do exactly what they need it to do. What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server so that you could write queries such as:
SELECT *
FROM Insured
INNER JOIN FloodRisk ON Insured.Location INSIDE FloodRisk.AreaMy favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
Most of the GIS base application code requires the complete use of the GIS libraries for their implementation.
Perhaps that's part of the problem. I'm being quite serious since I've both dealt with, and caused, problems like this before. When specialists write software they tend to expose too much of its inner workings throughout the application. This isn't out of malice, but usually because they have to get their work done and take the path of least resistance. Of course, I'm asking the impossible--for management to actually give the time to fundamentally rethink how the software is designed and then to implement a new design.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Only recently have I seen a few of the GIS developers start to talk methodology. Where I work is unique in the fact we are required to think of design and pattern methodology before developing our software. I have spent allot of time on projects working on just architecture initially and then implementation, spatial and non spatial. It often requires mixing the two to get the required functionality. Of course I believe if I can do something spatially in a non spatial implementation then do it. This saves the processing cost of running a GIS engine and makes the code easier to implement and maintain. But there is allot of GIS development that does not think architecture first and management is often the root problem.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers
What's the difference. I used to "do" GIS. From 1994 to 2003. I don't see the difference between developing against a spatially aware database and a regular one. You still have a set of business rules to contend with, you still have managers wanting things yesterday, you still have users that are unsatisfied because the software doesn't do exactly what they need it to do. What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server so that you could write queries such as:
SELECT *
FROM Insured
INNER JOIN FloodRisk ON Insured.Location INSIDE FloodRisk.AreaMy favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
The bulk of GIS uses ESRI which uses SDE as the primary spatial database layer. SDE is cost intensive when it comes to performance and does not give you allot of flexibility in working with your data. I guess the big difference is the type of software being developed. Some companies have applications that use GIS which requires less knowledge of geography,where as others the applications being developed are all geography/GIS base applications that utilize the theory of Geography for it's implementations
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
My favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Beats some of the stuff I did in undergrad which worked in solving locations of the donut shop in relation to the police station in Redlands:-D I think overall it really comes down to what type of application you are building and how much spatial processing is required.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
I follow the GIS market and find that most employers are offering far too little for what they are asking for. Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated. It also seems to me that few companies understand what skills are transferable. e.g. Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers
What's the difference. I used to "do" GIS. From 1994 to 2003. I don't see the difference between developing against a spatially aware database and a regular one. You still have a set of business rules to contend with, you still have managers wanting things yesterday, you still have users that are unsatisfied because the software doesn't do exactly what they need it to do. What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server so that you could write queries such as:
SELECT *
FROM Insured
INNER JOIN FloodRisk ON Insured.Location INSIDE FloodRisk.AreaMy favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
-
I follow the GIS market and find that most employers are offering far too little for what they are asking for. Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated. It also seems to me that few companies understand what skills are transferable. e.g. Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
cmk wrote:
Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated.
Actually, the GIS market is growing leaps and bounds but I don't think the market is saturated. The amounts being offered is a remnant from the pay scales offered for Geographers in the 80's and early nineties. The industry still regards itself within the context of social science and not a technological specialty. My 2cents worth.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server
Like this: http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=MsSqlSpatial[^]
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
That's excellent. It looks like it is still in the very early stages at the moment, but I really look forward to it.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Hi, I personally think that being a software developer is not that hot anymore and is viewed by outsiders as an uncertain personal future due to the fact that hiring/firing is depending on the global market and the payment for a junior programmer job is so low that you better work as a carpenter because you make more money in overtime. What is left are corporations that have products in mind and can't find programmers to do the job and hopefully understand that no-one gives a damm if they go down since they are no option to build a future on as a programmer so people choose a different profession!
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
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Hi, I personally think that being a software developer is not that hot anymore and is viewed by outsiders as an uncertain personal future due to the fact that hiring/firing is depending on the global market and the payment for a junior programmer job is so low that you better work as a carpenter because you make more money in overtime. What is left are corporations that have products in mind and can't find programmers to do the job and hopefully understand that no-one gives a damm if they go down since they are no option to build a future on as a programmer so people choose a different profession!
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
The Atlanta market seems to be doing really well if you are a junior to senior level developer. There are few entry level, but tons of specialty positions open. Interesting.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
-
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I disagree. You can live with one super expert and a bunch of code monkeys, but communication is much easier when you understand a bit of the problem domain.
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