What are good places to look for work?
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JazzJackRabbit wrote:
I asked him what it would take to the next level, he said in order to jump to 55-65K range I would have had to have 10+ years of experience.
:omg: That's definitely not true - for a big city like Chicago. Sounds like the recruiter is dishonest or ignorant or maybe both.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
C++/CLI in Action (*E-Book is out, Print version April 6th*)So.... how many time did you hit reply button? :D Anyway I'll pick this one to reply since it already has one reply to it. Well, it would definitely be a joke if this was downtown Chicago, but it's in the suburbs about 40 minutes away from downtown (if traffic is good and there aren't any cops around that is (btw speed limits in IL are ridiculous, all major Chicagoland highways are limited to 55MPH)). So I don't really know, it's not downtown so salaries bound to be smaller, I just think it's still waaaaay too small.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Regards, Nish
Nish... you are so shocked you are stuttering? It was probably a government recruiter. That sounds about right. :sigh:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Nish... you are so shocked you are stuttering? It was probably a government recruiter. That sounds about right.
Oh crap - I only submitted that once and it timed out. So I submitted it again and it hung and I closed the browser after copying the text to the clipboard. Then I loaded the Lounge again to hit reply once more and find that 4 copies have been posted. Oh well!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
C++/CLI in Action (*E-Book is out, Print version April 6th*) -
If you don't want to go through recruiters, the best way to find a job is to do your homework. Get on the web and start researching companies. My biggest advice for new graduates is to find a company that will help you best for a career, not who has the "perfect" job or even salary. (Then you eventually get old and jaded and take any old crap just to pay the bills.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Then you eventually get old and jaded and take any old crap just to pay the bills
Sad but true! :) Gave me a good laugh though!
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog
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recruiters aren't always bad - sometimes they're just acting as the hiring dept for companies that don't want to devote resources to finding candidates. and about salary: that's crazy. unless you stick to a single low-raise job for those ten years, you should be able to do a lot better than that.
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Well I suppose I understand why I don't have much luck with recruiters. I do have 3 years of experience, and I was/am doing real work. However, it just doesn't look good on resume and they can't sell me. I've also made mistake of telling one or two recruiters that I'm open to discussion about salary and as long as it's market rate we'll talk. They said sure, we'll send you couple of opportunities and was the last I heard about them. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Well anyway, since this is going to be my first non-intern job, I can't be real picky, but damn it, I need to pay bills and I already owe my dad money and there will be significant expenses in the next couple of years when my sister transfers to real college, not to mention saving for retirement etc etc. I'm not asking for much, but 40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make (no offense to secretaries).
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Well I suppose I understand why I don't have much luck with recruiters. I do have 3 years of experience, and I was/am doing real work. However, it just doesn't look good on resume and they can't sell me. I've also made mistake of telling one or two recruiters that I'm open to discussion about salary and as long as it's market rate we'll talk. They said sure, we'll send you couple of opportunities and was the last I heard about them. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Well anyway, since this is going to be my first non-intern job, I can't be real picky, but damn it, I need to pay bills and I already owe my dad money and there will be significant expenses in the next couple of years when my sister transfers to real college, not to mention saving for retirement etc etc. I'm not asking for much, but 40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make (no offense to secretaries).
JazzJackRabbit wrote:
40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make
What planet are you on? Secretaries make half that if they're lucky. For your first full time job, 45k is pretty damn good. A quick look at statistics will show that you'd still be making about 50% more than the median salary for that area. (Put 5% into a 401k for the next 40 years and you'll have plenty to retire on.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Well I suppose I understand why I don't have much luck with recruiters. I do have 3 years of experience, and I was/am doing real work. However, it just doesn't look good on resume and they can't sell me. I've also made mistake of telling one or two recruiters that I'm open to discussion about salary and as long as it's market rate we'll talk. They said sure, we'll send you couple of opportunities and was the last I heard about them. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Well anyway, since this is going to be my first non-intern job, I can't be real picky, but damn it, I need to pay bills and I already owe my dad money and there will be significant expenses in the next couple of years when my sister transfers to real college, not to mention saving for retirement etc etc. I'm not asking for much, but 40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make (no offense to secretaries).
JazzJackRabbit wrote:
40-45K is a joke
err... not really. for a starting/junior-level programming job, it's pretty good. it's about 10K higher than what i started out with, 14 years ago.
image processing toolkits | batch image processing | blogging
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Nish... you are so shocked you are stuttering? It was probably a government recruiter. That sounds about right.
Oh crap - I only submitted that once and it timed out. So I submitted it again and it hung and I closed the browser after copying the text to the clipboard. Then I loaded the Lounge again to hit reply once more and find that 4 copies have been posted. Oh well!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
C++/CLI in Action (*E-Book is out, Print version April 6th*)Hmmm... When I have to retry after it craps out it always tells me that the message appears to have been posted already. Did the message checking function change?
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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I will be graduating this May and I'm looking for work right now. I've had continuous 3+ year internship with .NET C# mainly doing client server programming with MSSQL 2000/2005 and a little bit of ASP.NET and everything involved. The company did indicate that they would like to have me on board but I want to explore other opportunities. I've been looking through monster/dice/careerbuilder websites but 95% of their postings are from recruiters and I haven't had much luck with those. Besides local career fairs/college placement programs/networking (have none of that one), does anybody have any ideas what other places online that posts IT listings? PS as a separate question, I've talked to a recruiter recently and he had a position in west Chicago suburbs at $40-45K for a programmer of my level of experience. I asked him what it would take to the next level, he said in order to jump to 55-65K range I would have had to have 10+ years of experience. Am I totally off base thinking this kind of compensation is ridiculous? This is for Chicagoland area.
I can't speak for the Chicago area, but I started at around $30k, and was at $55k within 5 years. I also had several offers in that ballpark, in the last year before I decided to start working from home instead.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Hmmm... When I have to retry after it craps out it always tells me that the message appears to have been posted already. Did the message checking function change?
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
No, that was working fine for me yesterday when CP timed out.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Well I suppose I understand why I don't have much luck with recruiters. I do have 3 years of experience, and I was/am doing real work. However, it just doesn't look good on resume and they can't sell me. I've also made mistake of telling one or two recruiters that I'm open to discussion about salary and as long as it's market rate we'll talk. They said sure, we'll send you couple of opportunities and was the last I heard about them. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Well anyway, since this is going to be my first non-intern job, I can't be real picky, but damn it, I need to pay bills and I already owe my dad money and there will be significant expenses in the next couple of years when my sister transfers to real college, not to mention saving for retirement etc etc. I'm not asking for much, but 40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make (no offense to secretaries).
JazzJackRabbit wrote:
but 40-45K is a joke,
Hardly a joke - that's far more than I make as an engineer with 25+ years of experience. A lot depends on where you live/work, but even in a big city I'd call $40k an awful lot to pay for a beginning programmer. I'd ask $35k and settle for $32 if it was in an expensive neighborhood. If you're any good (and with your intern experience you should be quite good) your skill will show, and your rate of climb will accelerate very soon.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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JazzJackRabbit wrote:
40-45K is a joke, that's how much secretaries make
What planet are you on? Secretaries make half that if they're lucky. For your first full time job, 45k is pretty damn good. A quick look at statistics will show that you'd still be making about 50% more than the median salary for that area. (Put 5% into a 401k for the next 40 years and you'll have plenty to retire on.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I have not interviewed for secretaries position (obviously) so I don't know how that would go, but 3-4 years ago I have seen ads that come out to 30K for girls on phone in the office (the type that sit in the hallway and answer/transfer general calls to the company). Take into account inflation, that's 33K now. That's why I asked if I'm totally off base thinking 40-45K. 7K difference between call girl that does nothing but transfers phone calls and developer with degree and active experience seems a bit unrealistic.
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I have not interviewed for secretaries position (obviously) so I don't know how that would go, but 3-4 years ago I have seen ads that come out to 30K for girls on phone in the office (the type that sit in the hallway and answer/transfer general calls to the company). Take into account inflation, that's 33K now. That's why I asked if I'm totally off base thinking 40-45K. 7K difference between call girl that does nothing but transfers phone calls and developer with degree and active experience seems a bit unrealistic.
JazzJackRabbit wrote:
but 3-4 years ago I have seen ads that come out to 30K for girls on phone in the office
You believe ads? :omg: Be aware that salaries don't track inflation. There are also changes in salary depending on the qualified job pool and the types of companies hiring. Frankly, I think you're being an arrogant twit, thinking you are "owed" money because of your degree and your needs wants. You are justifying your arrogance by bashing other careers with no knowledge of those careers. In my experience, a good secretary--even one that "only" answers the phone--is worth a hell of a lot more than you give credit for. I hope you find someone to hire your sorry ass, because I wouldn't.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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JazzJackRabbit wrote:
but 3-4 years ago I have seen ads that come out to 30K for girls on phone in the office
You believe ads? :omg: Be aware that salaries don't track inflation. There are also changes in salary depending on the qualified job pool and the types of companies hiring. Frankly, I think you're being an arrogant twit, thinking you are "owed" money because of your degree and your needs wants. You are justifying your arrogance by bashing other careers with no knowledge of those careers. In my experience, a good secretary--even one that "only" answers the phone--is worth a hell of a lot more than you give credit for. I hope you find someone to hire your sorry ass, because I wouldn't.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Good thing I don't live anywhere near you then. I asked an honest question and I wanted an honest answer. Like I said. I did a 3 year internship, and I still work there and yes, I do consider these three years a real experience. Given the standard of living in Chicago area yes, 40K does seem low. In my area (30 minutes from downtown if there isn't any traffic) simple studio starts with $700 a month, a one bedroom apartment starts with $800. That's not as much as NY or CA, but it does come out to 10K year just for apartment and does not include any utilities like phone/electricity/internet/water/gas. That IS expensive, and salaries must reflect that. Given what I said above I asked a question because 40K did seem low for that type of experience and the area I'm living at and that's why I wanted input from others.You answered, well, at least thanks for that. You just didn't have to be an ass about it.
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Good thing I don't live anywhere near you then. I asked an honest question and I wanted an honest answer. Like I said. I did a 3 year internship, and I still work there and yes, I do consider these three years a real experience. Given the standard of living in Chicago area yes, 40K does seem low. In my area (30 minutes from downtown if there isn't any traffic) simple studio starts with $700 a month, a one bedroom apartment starts with $800. That's not as much as NY or CA, but it does come out to 10K year just for apartment and does not include any utilities like phone/electricity/internet/water/gas. That IS expensive, and salaries must reflect that. Given what I said above I asked a question because 40K did seem low for that type of experience and the area I'm living at and that's why I wanted input from others.You answered, well, at least thanks for that. You just didn't have to be an ass about it.
The rental rates you quoted are cheap for a city the size of Chicago. You need to understand how the job market works. Salaries are based on what the market will bear. In the Chicago area, it appears that beginner .NET developers make about $45,000 a year. You can complain all you want, but if employers can hire people at $45,000 a year it won't do you any good. In truth, you are hamstringing yourself by limiting your potential market to Chicago and concentrating solely on salary. In most fields your biggest raises come from changing jobs, so the best strategy when you're young and untied down is to pick jobs that will give you the best experience that you can use when you change jobs. If you want to simply maximize disposable income, then expand your job search around the world and be willing to do work that may not be your favorite. What I'm being an ass about is your belief that your salary should be based on anything but the value you bring an employer. I'm also heavily objecting to your denigration of other careers and jobs in order to bolster your claims you should be paid more.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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The rental rates you quoted are cheap for a city the size of Chicago. You need to understand how the job market works. Salaries are based on what the market will bear. In the Chicago area, it appears that beginner .NET developers make about $45,000 a year. You can complain all you want, but if employers can hire people at $45,000 a year it won't do you any good. In truth, you are hamstringing yourself by limiting your potential market to Chicago and concentrating solely on salary. In most fields your biggest raises come from changing jobs, so the best strategy when you're young and untied down is to pick jobs that will give you the best experience that you can use when you change jobs. If you want to simply maximize disposable income, then expand your job search around the world and be willing to do work that may not be your favorite. What I'm being an ass about is your belief that your salary should be based on anything but the value you bring an employer. I'm also heavily objecting to your denigration of other careers and jobs in order to bolster your claims you should be paid more.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The rental rates you quoted are cheap for a city the size of Chicago. You need to understand how the job market works. Salaries are based on what the market will bear. In the Chicago area, it appears that beginner .NET developers make about $45,000 a year. You can complain all you want, but if employers can hire people at $45,000 a year it won't do you any good. . . . [and below]
The rents I quoted are absolute minimum I could find doing a quick search, and like I said that's not even close to downtown Chicago, so yes, that is expensive. I do know companies that pay a lot, to the tune of 70-90K for a developer with 7 years experience, I just can't there yet. Yes, yes, I know not my level of experience yet, but given what others are willing to pay for such developer with so many years the recruiter numbers definitely seem unreasonable. That is why I asked for confirmation.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
What I'm being an ass about is your belief that your salary should be based on anything but the value you bring an employer. I'm also heavily objecting to your denigration of other careers and jobs in order to bolster your claims you should be paid more.
I agree, one's worth should be based on what he can bring to the table, no argument here and I'm fine with that. Regarding denigration of other careers, I do not denigrate them. Any job that brings food to the table is fine. However, what is wrong about wanting more and expecting to be compensated appropriately for the skills I have? Why did I go to college then other than to increase my standard of living? Why did I chose to do an internship while still in school other than get a real experience and have a better base salary when I graduate? Why do I keep writing personal projects other than to increase my knowledge? Why do I keep reading articles here on cp and books (right now reading Design Patterns by Gang of Four) other than to increase my technical knowledge? Why do I keep looking into new technology (dabbling with simple CLR integration with SQL 2005 server right now)? Once again, not to offend other professions, but show me a secretary that does as much as I do to keep my skills current and to get new skills in areas I don't know yet? I do not look down on other professions, but I do expect to be paid more than lower skilled professions.
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I will be graduating this May and I'm looking for work right now. I've had continuous 3+ year internship with .NET C# mainly doing client server programming with MSSQL 2000/2005 and a little bit of ASP.NET and everything involved. The company did indicate that they would like to have me on board but I want to explore other opportunities. I've been looking through monster/dice/careerbuilder websites but 95% of their postings are from recruiters and I haven't had much luck with those. Besides local career fairs/college placement programs/networking (have none of that one), does anybody have any ideas what other places online that posts IT listings? PS as a separate question, I've talked to a recruiter recently and he had a position in west Chicago suburbs at $40-45K for a programmer of my level of experience. I asked him what it would take to the next level, he said in order to jump to 55-65K range I would have had to have 10+ years of experience. Am I totally off base thinking this kind of compensation is ridiculous? This is for Chicagoland area.
While pay is important, another thing to really think about is how you are as a developer, kinda like a personal portfolio. Questions you should ask yourself: How fast do I learn and adapt to new technologies? How much time am I willing to spend outside of work learning new things? What is the ideal work environment that you prefer? How many extra hours are you willing to work over 40hrs a week? These are just a few. But you really need to take inventory of these types of things as allot of your ability to climb the pay scale quickly (less than 10 yrs) will be reflected by these. The best advise I would give you is get your foot in the door, but be willing to learn everything possible. I would recommend reading and studying everything, not only will this help you out with your job possibilities and future growth, they will also develop good habits to maintain your job. Try a book like the pragmatic programmer. Also, read outside of the technical, spend some time learning about databases, frameworks, patterns and the such. This will help you out greatly. From my experience the more you know about the latter the better you are as you work your way up. Also, remember as you work you dont have to be married to the company you first choose to work for. I have had three jobs in the last two years and this is largely because as I worked for them longer I found the goals of the company did not match my personal goals, or the atmosphere and environment were wrong for me. I have now ended up at a company I enjoy working for and will stay with for a while. Just some thoughts!!
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I will be graduating this May and I'm looking for work right now. I've had continuous 3+ year internship with .NET C# mainly doing client server programming with MSSQL 2000/2005 and a little bit of ASP.NET and everything involved. The company did indicate that they would like to have me on board but I want to explore other opportunities. I've been looking through monster/dice/careerbuilder websites but 95% of their postings are from recruiters and I haven't had much luck with those. Besides local career fairs/college placement programs/networking (have none of that one), does anybody have any ideas what other places online that posts IT listings? PS as a separate question, I've talked to a recruiter recently and he had a position in west Chicago suburbs at $40-45K for a programmer of my level of experience. I asked him what it would take to the next level, he said in order to jump to 55-65K range I would have had to have 10+ years of experience. Am I totally off base thinking this kind of compensation is ridiculous? This is for Chicagoland area.
Hi, Some time ago i found a survey (2006) from Redmond magazine on salaries, perhaps it's some help to get an indication what Microsoft specialist make. http://redmondmag.com/salarysurveys/[^]
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Nish... you are so shocked you are stuttering? It was probably a government recruiter. That sounds about right.
Oh crap - I only submitted that once and it timed out. So I submitted it again and it hung and I closed the browser after copying the text to the clipboard. Then I loaded the Lounge again to hit reply once more and find that 4 copies have been posted. Oh well!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
C++/CLI in Action (*E-Book is out, Print version April 6th*) -
While pay is important, another thing to really think about is how you are as a developer, kinda like a personal portfolio. Questions you should ask yourself: How fast do I learn and adapt to new technologies? How much time am I willing to spend outside of work learning new things? What is the ideal work environment that you prefer? How many extra hours are you willing to work over 40hrs a week? These are just a few. But you really need to take inventory of these types of things as allot of your ability to climb the pay scale quickly (less than 10 yrs) will be reflected by these. The best advise I would give you is get your foot in the door, but be willing to learn everything possible. I would recommend reading and studying everything, not only will this help you out with your job possibilities and future growth, they will also develop good habits to maintain your job. Try a book like the pragmatic programmer. Also, read outside of the technical, spend some time learning about databases, frameworks, patterns and the such. This will help you out greatly. From my experience the more you know about the latter the better you are as you work your way up. Also, remember as you work you dont have to be married to the company you first choose to work for. I have had three jobs in the last two years and this is largely because as I worked for them longer I found the goals of the company did not match my personal goals, or the atmosphere and environment were wrong for me. I have now ended up at a company I enjoy working for and will stay with for a while. Just some thoughts!!
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Read my previous post. I am a fast learner and I do learn new things on my own time, and as I'm not an old matured developer yet I actually enjoy learning new things. That's why it's so frustrating talking with recruiters who do not appreciate and do not want to know about the work I put in and which prompted me to create this thread. That is why I asked about the places I can look for a job because I want best possible job that I can manage at this time. Ideally I would prefer a dynamic environment which does involve a bit of learning of new technologies but that's rarely possible. Regarding 40+ hours week, I'd rather not to because while it may be expected in some companies, it usually indicates poor management, because it takes away from my personal time, because it doesn't let me work on my own personal projects and improve my skills and because extra pay is not worth the time.
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I will be graduating this May and I'm looking for work right now. I've had continuous 3+ year internship with .NET C# mainly doing client server programming with MSSQL 2000/2005 and a little bit of ASP.NET and everything involved. The company did indicate that they would like to have me on board but I want to explore other opportunities. I've been looking through monster/dice/careerbuilder websites but 95% of their postings are from recruiters and I haven't had much luck with those. Besides local career fairs/college placement programs/networking (have none of that one), does anybody have any ideas what other places online that posts IT listings? PS as a separate question, I've talked to a recruiter recently and he had a position in west Chicago suburbs at $40-45K for a programmer of my level of experience. I asked him what it would take to the next level, he said in order to jump to 55-65K range I would have had to have 10+ years of experience. Am I totally off base thinking this kind of compensation is ridiculous? This is for Chicagoland area.