Old Rockets Carry Bacteria to the Stars
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why sterilize unless the spacecraft was carrying humans?
Remember what happened when the Europeans came to America? Indians practically died off from simple childhood diseases the Europeans brought with them. Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithWow! It's amazing how much of thinking went into the launch of these spacecrafts.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
So they were released sometime recently?
The rockets? I'm not sure what you mean. Except for the Pluto probe, we're talking 20 year old probes, I think. They were boosted to solar escape velocity a looong time ago. It's a big solar system, you know. If you mean by "released", that they were separated from the probes, no I would imagine that happened after they spent their fuel, so that the probes could do minor course corrections and planetary assists without the useless mass of the rocket attached. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why sterilize unless the spacecraft was carrying humans?
Remember what happened when the Europeans came to America? Indians practically died off from simple childhood diseases the Europeans brought with them. Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small.
Oh, sure. When the aliens get pissed off at us for dumping old rockets on their heads, they'll be plenty healthy enough to retaliate. Good plan, NASA... :rolleyes:
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i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
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Good book, but I think that one worked itself out at the end. Can't remember the ending well.
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable an ignorable war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." - Albert Einstein Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
The bacteria mutated into some benign strain or something along those lines; of course, not before the count down to the nuclear bomb at the bottom of the facility was initiated ... Just had a good movie plot: - Rocket booster lands on alien planet - Alien planet is populated with alien race - Bacteria infects them, killing millions - They get REAL upset, figure out where it came from - Fight ensues; human race is almost annihilated - <insert actor of choice> fights to save the Earth! Well, you get the idea. Disclaimer: All the ideas, concepts and poppycock in this posting are (c)opyright Douglas H. Troy. He'll concede to a TV mini-series if the price is right. ;P
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
No. They don't need continuous thrust to stay in orbit and finally leave. All they need is sufficient velocity, at the time the engines are shutdown, to slowly climb out of orbit. Since there's nothing the slow them down up there, they can easily leave orbit, given sufficient time. It may take years, bu, obviously, it does happen.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
So they were released sometime recently?
The rockets? I'm not sure what you mean. Except for the Pluto probe, we're talking 20 year old probes, I think. They were boosted to solar escape velocity a looong time ago. It's a big solar system, you know. If you mean by "released", that they were separated from the probes, no I would imagine that happened after they spent their fuel, so that the probes could do minor course corrections and planetary assists without the useless mass of the rocket attached. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithI meant if the rocket stages were separated from the probes 20 years ago, they should have fallen back into the solar system pull. I thought the probes left the solar system only a few years ago? So if the stages did leave solar orbit too, then they must have been released fairly recently and not 20 years ago when they were all still within the solar system.
"Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weasling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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I meant if the rocket stages were separated from the probes 20 years ago, they should have fallen back into the solar system pull. I thought the probes left the solar system only a few years ago? So if the stages did leave solar orbit too, then they must have been released fairly recently and not 20 years ago when they were all still within the solar system.
"Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weasling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
No. The upper most stage of the rocket is the one that was attached to it when it left Earth orbit and gave it the initial push towards Jupiter(?). After it burned out and was detached the probe would only make minor adjustments so the upper stages are following very similar orbits to the probes they launched.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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The bacteria mutated into some benign strain or something along those lines; of course, not before the count down to the nuclear bomb at the bottom of the facility was initiated ... Just had a good movie plot: - Rocket booster lands on alien planet - Alien planet is populated with alien race - Bacteria infects them, killing millions - They get REAL upset, figure out where it came from - Fight ensues; human race is almost annihilated - <insert actor of choice> fights to save the Earth! Well, you get the idea. Disclaimer: All the ideas, concepts and poppycock in this posting are (c)opyright Douglas H. Troy. He'll concede to a TV mini-series if the price is right. ;P
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTL -
No. The upper most stage of the rocket is the one that was attached to it when it left Earth orbit and gave it the initial push towards Jupiter(?). After it burned out and was detached the probe would only make minor adjustments so the upper stages are following very similar orbits to the probes they launched.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
Interesting, I always thought that they had to be further away from the sun for them to make it on momentum alone.
"This perpetual motion machine she made is a joke. It just keeps going faster and faster. Lisa, get in here! In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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I meant if the rocket stages were separated from the probes 20 years ago, they should have fallen back into the solar system pull. I thought the probes left the solar system only a few years ago? So if the stages did leave solar orbit too, then they must have been released fairly recently and not 20 years ago when they were all still within the solar system.
"Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weasling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
if the rocket stages were separated from the probes 20 years ago, they should have fallen back into the solar system pull.
As mentioned this is a function of velocity. Acceleration, or gravity reduces velocity until you leave the gravitational influence. If velocity exceeds the point where gravity can reduce it before reaching the end of gravitational influence, then that object will continue on, it has reached escape velocity. If you do not reach escape velocity of the earth, you fall back to the earth, if you escape the gravitational influence of the earth, you are still within the gravitational influence of the sun (the big bully of the solar system ... always throwing around its mass), and will fall into the sun. But if you leave the gravitational influence of the sun, or at least reach solar system escape velocity, you will continue to slow until leaving the gravitational influence and then continue at near the same velocity until captured by another gravitational influence. The boosters brought the probes' velocities up to solar system escape velocity during boost phase. When this velocity was achieved the probe was released. Both would have continued on the same vector out of the solar system missing all the planets. But the probes had minor engines for minor navigation, so they slowly turned to their paths. The bounce around slingshots entering and leaving other gravitational influences, but that increases velocity on the entry vector and decreases the velocity on the exit vector, but the net effect is nil because the probe is already too fast to be slowed. Outside of crashing into something the probes continue at an escape velocity as do the boosters that got them to speed, only the direction changes on the probles, not the velocity. the probes will be at very close to the same velocity as the booster stages even decades later, all they did was turn here and there.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small.
Oh, sure. When the aliens get pissed off at us for dumping old rockets on their heads, they'll be plenty healthy enough to retaliate. Good plan, NASA... :rolleyes:
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i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
Shog9 wrote:
When the aliens get pissed off at us for dumping old rockets on their heads
Naw, we'll seed new life on another planet that will grow up pissed at being neglected and come back to boot their parents out of the solar system. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Why sterilize unless the spacecraft was carrying humans?
Remember what happened when the Europeans came to America? Indians practically died off from simple childhood diseases the Europeans brought with them. Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small.
We also do not want any potential of 'seeding'. The last thing we want is to go looking for life and find our own.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, the idea is, we don't want to infect other planets that might be harboring life, even if that life is alien and the chances are really small.
Oh, sure. When the aliens get pissed off at us for dumping old rockets on their heads, they'll be plenty healthy enough to retaliate. Good plan, NASA... :rolleyes:
----
i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
I am more afraid that the aliens should not build a "junkyard monster rocket" with all those old rocket spare parts and come to earth on that. :sigh:
"Hmmm, I wonder if this guy knows about the VCF? That's what all the cool programmers are using according to Jenna Jameson." - Jim Crafton.
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Interesting, I always thought that they had to be further away from the sun for them to make it on momentum alone.
"This perpetual motion machine she made is a joke. It just keeps going faster and faster. Lisa, get in here! In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I always thought that they had to be further away from the sun for them to make it on momentum alone
distance is irrelevant. other than it takes distance for constant slow acceleration to defeat strong gravity (which is acceleration on another vectored direction). If you can create a gun that launches at escape velocity out of the nozzle, it will leave the earth even though it was launched from the earth. This is actually one of the plans for mining the moon I forget the name of the gun. essentially you mine a valuable ore, place it in a metal cage, launch it from a magnetic launch tube (massively high speed short space) and it arcs up out of the lunar influence and can be easily tethered and pulled into a space-station or other vehicle. acceleration -><- gravity: --><- means your acceleration exceeds gravitational influence and are therefore increasing in velocity in respect to the gravity -><-- would mean that your acceleration is enough to decrease gravitation influence, but the gravity is still gradually slowing you down. when you cut engines you have a current velocity state which will slow relative to the inverse square of the distance and the mass of the object. It is true you no longer have acceleration to counter gravitational influence, but If you are A) far enough out or B) fast enough that you cannot be slowed enough, then you will continue indefinitely (or at least until you find someone else to pull you in). The distance really is irrelevant, just the velocity is easier to achieve at the greater distance.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Interesting, I always thought that they had to be further away from the sun for them to make it on momentum alone.
"This perpetual motion machine she made is a joke. It just keeps going faster and faster. Lisa, get in here! In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" - Homer Simpson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
All that's needed is to reach escape velocity. The required velocity decreases as you move farther from the sun, but only by the same amount that an object traveling at that velocity would loose as it traveled the same distance outward.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
if the rocket stages were separated from the probes 20 years ago, they should have fallen back into the solar system pull.
As mentioned this is a function of velocity. Acceleration, or gravity reduces velocity until you leave the gravitational influence. If velocity exceeds the point where gravity can reduce it before reaching the end of gravitational influence, then that object will continue on, it has reached escape velocity. If you do not reach escape velocity of the earth, you fall back to the earth, if you escape the gravitational influence of the earth, you are still within the gravitational influence of the sun (the big bully of the solar system ... always throwing around its mass), and will fall into the sun. But if you leave the gravitational influence of the sun, or at least reach solar system escape velocity, you will continue to slow until leaving the gravitational influence and then continue at near the same velocity until captured by another gravitational influence. The boosters brought the probes' velocities up to solar system escape velocity during boost phase. When this velocity was achieved the probe was released. Both would have continued on the same vector out of the solar system missing all the planets. But the probes had minor engines for minor navigation, so they slowly turned to their paths. The bounce around slingshots entering and leaving other gravitational influences, but that increases velocity on the entry vector and decreases the velocity on the exit vector, but the net effect is nil because the probe is already too fast to be slowed. Outside of crashing into something the probes continue at an escape velocity as do the boosters that got them to speed, only the direction changes on the probles, not the velocity. the probes will be at very close to the same velocity as the booster stages even decades later, all they did was turn here and there.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Thanks for the info. I understood all that, but my problem was with when this happened more than how. I thought that the rockets & boosters only got to escape velocity somewhere close to the outer rim of the solar system which would mean, I think, more recently (I assume they only escaped the solar system within the last decade). However, it makes sense that escape velocity was reached when they orbited the last known planet for slingshot effect, which would mean Jupiter from a long time ago. Did the probe dump the boosters before the slingshot around the planet or after?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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Thanks for the info. I understood all that, but my problem was with when this happened more than how. I thought that the rockets & boosters only got to escape velocity somewhere close to the outer rim of the solar system which would mean, I think, more recently (I assume they only escaped the solar system within the last decade). However, it makes sense that escape velocity was reached when they orbited the last known planet for slingshot effect, which would mean Jupiter from a long time ago. Did the probe dump the boosters before the slingshot around the planet or after?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I understood all that, but my problem was with when this happened more than how
Then you really aren't understanding the how either. The boosters were dropped before the very first planetary navigation. Speed was acheived first, the the probes released to travel to the planets. The sling shot is only a change in direction, nothing more. The issue you have, I think, is believing escape velocity == the point of leaving gravitational influence. We'll reduce the example to make it simpler, drop back to earth which once was the center of the solar system anyhow ;) You stand on the earth with a gravitational influence of 9.8m/s2 exerted on your person. Lets say you have a REALLY big gun. You fire the gun up at shell velocity of 11.2 kilometers a second. Even though the shell has no propulsion (the gun has the propulsion) the shell will leave the earth's gravitational field and fall into the sun. BUT if you slowly lift your craft by accelerating upwards, as you get higher from the earth you need less velocity to escape the earth's gravity. Theoretically you can make a slow lift vehicle that simply has an acceleration of 10 m/s2 and it will slowly rise. If at the point where you loose acceleration, your velocity exceeds the escape velocity at that location (gravity reduces on an inverse square of distance), you will escape the gravity of the earth. This is exactly how the probes worked. the boost phase was a long slow acceleration to get both distance and velocity. The farther out, the less velocity is needed to escape the sun, so a long-slow boost achieved both velocity and distance when the velocity exceeded escape velocity for that location, the engines were dropped and continued on out of the solar system. The probes turned and zigged and zagged through the solar system still staying at the same velocity of the booster. Both will slow, but will not slow to 0 before leaving the influence of the sun. Once they leave, they're free.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I always thought that they had to be further away from the sun for them to make it on momentum alone
distance is irrelevant. other than it takes distance for constant slow acceleration to defeat strong gravity (which is acceleration on another vectored direction). If you can create a gun that launches at escape velocity out of the nozzle, it will leave the earth even though it was launched from the earth. This is actually one of the plans for mining the moon I forget the name of the gun. essentially you mine a valuable ore, place it in a metal cage, launch it from a magnetic launch tube (massively high speed short space) and it arcs up out of the lunar influence and can be easily tethered and pulled into a space-station or other vehicle. acceleration -><- gravity: --><- means your acceleration exceeds gravitational influence and are therefore increasing in velocity in respect to the gravity -><-- would mean that your acceleration is enough to decrease gravitation influence, but the gravity is still gradually slowing you down. when you cut engines you have a current velocity state which will slow relative to the inverse square of the distance and the mass of the object. It is true you no longer have acceleration to counter gravitational influence, but If you are A) far enough out or B) fast enough that you cannot be slowed enough, then you will continue indefinitely (or at least until you find someone else to pull you in). The distance really is irrelevant, just the velocity is easier to achieve at the greater distance.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
constant slow acceleration
That's what I was missing. I thought the probes had no real engines, path correction only, and were moving on constant velocities.
"There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I understood all that, but my problem was with when this happened more than how
Then you really aren't understanding the how either. The boosters were dropped before the very first planetary navigation. Speed was acheived first, the the probes released to travel to the planets. The sling shot is only a change in direction, nothing more. The issue you have, I think, is believing escape velocity == the point of leaving gravitational influence. We'll reduce the example to make it simpler, drop back to earth which once was the center of the solar system anyhow ;) You stand on the earth with a gravitational influence of 9.8m/s2 exerted on your person. Lets say you have a REALLY big gun. You fire the gun up at shell velocity of 11.2 kilometers a second. Even though the shell has no propulsion (the gun has the propulsion) the shell will leave the earth's gravitational field and fall into the sun. BUT if you slowly lift your craft by accelerating upwards, as you get higher from the earth you need less velocity to escape the earth's gravity. Theoretically you can make a slow lift vehicle that simply has an acceleration of 10 m/s2 and it will slowly rise. If at the point where you loose acceleration, your velocity exceeds the escape velocity at that location (gravity reduces on an inverse square of distance), you will escape the gravity of the earth. This is exactly how the probes worked. the boost phase was a long slow acceleration to get both distance and velocity. The farther out, the less velocity is needed to escape the sun, so a long-slow boost achieved both velocity and distance when the velocity exceeded escape velocity for that location, the engines were dropped and continued on out of the solar system. The probes turned and zigged and zagged through the solar system still staying at the same velocity of the booster. Both will slow, but will not slow to 0 before leaving the influence of the sun. Once they leave, they're free.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Actually, I understand the concept that the acceleration needed to be greater than the gravitational influence, however, I did not realize that the slingshots were for direction only. I assumed a gravitational pull will increase speed, but would cancel out like you said on exit. My other issue was with:
El Corazon wrote:
Both will slow, but will not slow to 0 before leaving the influence of the sun. Once they leave, they're free.
If the booster is gone and velocity is only based upon initial velocity and momentum, then in theory, shouldn't the sun's pull bring them back in in a few hundred years? I am assuming that 1) there's no acceleration, 2) constant velocity, 3) some drag that will slow down that velocity eventually. Pull from another solar system should be negligible compared to our own.
"You can lead a horse to Vista, but it won't get in stall." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I thought that without thrust, they'd fall back in?
Those particular rocket motors were used to boost four space probes so that they could escape the solar system, so the rockets have nearly the same velocity as well. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithWhatever happened when over ten million years ago or so comets and space debris seeded our nice little home with amoebas and other bacteria? OOps , sorry those were my predecessors.
All things being equal, tommorrow will never equal today
