Why a career in computer programming sucks
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go.
Uhhh, I DO have my own office. Sounds like this "person" is just a bit jealous that he didn't have what it took to be a programmer. I, like many others on here, are not only proud to be a programmer, but don't give a rats as* what some whiner may have to say about it.
The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing).
As stated before, the only companies who lean towards this outsourcing are the ones who are more worried about the bottom line that actually providing a quality product to their customers/clients.
If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming.
Being a bean counter is better than being a programmer? What plane of reality does this person live in? Since when did being an accountant become more challenging than making things work with code (aka being a programmer). I wouldn't trade my career choice for anything, I am a 40 year old programmer, I get paid excellent money (and don't have to be a manager to get it) I work for an organization who takes more care of their IT department (ie great equipment, comfortable workplace, stress free (well as much as possible) work environment and more freedom) than they do the other departments in the organization.
" In the next millennium there are two kinds of business, those on the Internet and those out of business" Bill Gates "Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one." Bill Gates "Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." Bill Gates
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
Well I am 60. Been programming since the dawn of time. In machine code , Assembly language,COBOL, RPG, APL, FORTRAN, FORTH,BASIC,C, Java,and now .net in VB and C#. Tools are more fun. Job is still fun. I have my own office. I come and go as I please. I make good money..... Yeah it really sucks.
David Lane One World One People.
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
As somebody rapidly heading towards the "60" age group, I feel that those articles are full of misconceptions. Sure, a lot of the technical information I've had to learn over the years has become obsolete, but as you said "How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present?" and even more significantly "Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology". Developing good systems needs more than just knowledge of the latest languages, APIs etc., it also needs the skill and experience, and sometimes a few "old tricks". I work in a team with a fair number of recent graduates, as well as a whole range of ages, and although the younger guys might be keener they're still learning a lot of the skills they'll need to produce good, efficient and properly debugged code. We "more mature" team members can help them learn, and they're often quite amazed when one of us pulls some clever little trick out of the bag. Oh, and the day I stop wanting to learn new stuff is the day I'll be hanging up my flowchart template :) PS - I've tried the move up to management route and didn't enjoy it one bit, which is why I packed it in and went back to what I love doing.
There are three kinds of people in the world - those who can count and those who can't...
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Put it this way. The guy with 10 years C++ and 1 year C# is more likely to be a better developer than the guy with just 5 years C#. However, I've seen guys with supposedly 15 years experience being outshone by a guy just 2 years out of uni.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Put it this way. The guy with 10 years C++ and 1 year C# is more likely to be a better developer than the guy with just 5 years C#.
Yes but not if it is 10 years of C++ and 0 years of C#. When it comes to programming I understand that the longer you work in the field and understand the capabilities of the computer and the logic the better you are. BUT when a company needs a C# programmer that is a C# programmer the day they hire them and not a C++ programmer learning C# and all the .NET fixings then the C# guy would be better.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
:rose: Well then, meet one. Not only am I 57 years old, but a woman, no less! I'm not currently a manager, but have been in that position. I like programming and have never gotten burned out like everyone told me I would. I started programming on an IBM System 34 in 1979, raised two sons, took care of a terminally ill husband and went back to school as needed to stay up to date. I've been through a lot of life and being able to get "in the zone" with my job as a programmer has helped me during times when I just needed to make time seem to go faster. All in all, it's been great and I look forward to making at least another 10 years in some fashion... maybe part time at some point. Programming is like putting together a puzzle everyday. Frustrating and fun at the same time. I enjoy my job! To anyone who doesn't I say make a change... either in your job or your attitude. 2MileHill "Playing small does not serve the world." -Marianne Williamson-
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:rose: Well then, meet one. Not only am I 57 years old, but a woman, no less! I'm not currently a manager, but have been in that position. I like programming and have never gotten burned out like everyone told me I would. I started programming on an IBM System 34 in 1979, raised two sons, took care of a terminally ill husband and went back to school as needed to stay up to date. I've been through a lot of life and being able to get "in the zone" with my job as a programmer has helped me during times when I just needed to make time seem to go faster. All in all, it's been great and I look forward to making at least another 10 years in some fashion... maybe part time at some point. Programming is like putting together a puzzle everyday. Frustrating and fun at the same time. I enjoy my job! To anyone who doesn't I say make a change... either in your job or your attitude. 2MileHill "Playing small does not serve the world." -Marianne Williamson-
I stand told. I was busy being born and breastfed in 1979. But you're cheating because you've been a manager, so you have that in your profile. Something that sets you apart from the bog standard, which is what that guy was saying.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
- Prestige, income, and job security are not my top concerns in life. 2) I love developing software. 3) I don't mind sitting in a cube, because it makes it easier to communicate with other members of my team.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] FYI - Bob is a scarecrow who keeps Chuck Norris away from CodeProject.
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:rose: Well then, meet one. Not only am I 57 years old, but a woman, no less! I'm not currently a manager, but have been in that position. I like programming and have never gotten burned out like everyone told me I would. I started programming on an IBM System 34 in 1979, raised two sons, took care of a terminally ill husband and went back to school as needed to stay up to date. I've been through a lot of life and being able to get "in the zone" with my job as a programmer has helped me during times when I just needed to make time seem to go faster. All in all, it's been great and I look forward to making at least another 10 years in some fashion... maybe part time at some point. Programming is like putting together a puzzle everyday. Frustrating and fun at the same time. I enjoy my job! To anyone who doesn't I say make a change... either in your job or your attitude. 2MileHill "Playing small does not serve the world." -Marianne Williamson-
I'm the youngest in my programming group at 40! The old guys are constantly reminding me out wet behind the ears I am, everyday. These guys have had no problem keeping up with new technologies. The young folk can take a lesson from that, if they are up to the challange. ;P
PreciousPJ
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I disagree. I've worked with many programmers who were 50+. Granted, the ones working for the state were crusty & stagnant, but the consultants/private company programmers were fantastic.
Being a programmer is great. I really do enjoy my work... All the long hours spending in front of my computer... how i neglect my friends and my family... I do have to say that job security isnt so great though. And the pay... well thats another story. I have many friends who have their degrees in computer science and we all make around the $$$ per year. I have some other friends who graduated with business degrees and make way more than I do.. ( even though I was the one to bust my butt )... It's unfair but hey.. thats life... "Cant always get what you want". I dont think that having a career in computer programming sucks. I think a career is what you make of it. And that goes for any job out there. There is always going to be faults with anything you do. You just have to make the best of it and do what you enjoy doing... assuming it doesnt bother or hurt anybody else.. :laugh:
Keep Coding
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
I am a 52-year-old programmer. I have been a project manager and a team manager but I prefer creating things rather than keeping up with management whims. I'm good at what I do because I have experience in many languages (beginning with FORTRAN) and I can easily adapt my skills to the next "best" choice. Luckily, my last job change allowed me to revert to programming with very little loss in salary. I am valuable to my company because of my variety of languages. I program in VB6, VBA and/or VB.Net every day but I could easily switch back to Java or C# in a heartbeat. The author's article (full version) looks very professional in print but is so full of word-errors (words that pass the spell-checker but are used improperly, starting with "being" instead of "begin") that eventually I gave up on thinking him credible. P.M.
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led mike wrote:
depending on ones political party and/or religion,
That reminds me of the quote, "A man without a religion is like a fish without a bicycle" :-D
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I am a 52-year-old programmer. I have been a project manager and a team manager but I prefer creating things rather than keeping up with management whims. I'm good at what I do because I have experience in many languages (beginning with FORTRAN) and I can easily adapt my skills to the next "best" choice. Luckily, my last job change allowed me to revert to programming with very little loss in salary. I am valuable to my company because of my variety of languages. I program in VB6, VBA and/or VB.Net every day but I could easily switch back to Java or C# in a heartbeat. The author's article (full version) looks very professional in print but is so full of word-errors (words that pass the spell-checker but are used improperly, starting with "being" instead of "begin") that eventually I gave up on thinking him credible. P.M.
I love it when all these younger programmers feel that that just because they where born in an era of more advanced technology, they are in fact more technologically savvy. The truth is programming is as much about, problem solving and dealing with people as it is with writing code. At 51, I enjoy the process, as much as the results.
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I won't agree on this. In our company one very old programmer is working. His age may be more than 55, he may retair with in next two years. Still he is very good C++ programmer, Most of server side programming he is Writing ( He is not managing), still he is writing code. Our programme architecture avh age is 45.
Ravi
I am 74 years old, and having a ball programming VB.NET. I started with FORTRAN (all caps, of course), went through a dozen or more languages over the years (NEAT-3, anyone?). Still learning, still coming to work to try something new. The other day my son, a manager at a very high-tech military-supplying company, was discussing things with his buddies at lunch. Their company had just decided it was worth while to get a couple of their folks up to speed on Visual Studio and embedded Windows. He commented that it was surprising how his programming skills had all atrophied, while his old dad was already a generation ahead and pulling away. Love those embedded systems! JimT
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I am 74 years old, and having a ball programming VB.NET. I started with FORTRAN (all caps, of course), went through a dozen or more languages over the years (NEAT-3, anyone?). Still learning, still coming to work to try something new. The other day my son, a manager at a very high-tech military-supplying company, was discussing things with his buddies at lunch. Their company had just decided it was worth while to get a couple of their folks up to speed on Visual Studio and embedded Windows. He commented that it was surprising how his programming skills had all atrophied, while his old dad was already a generation ahead and pulling away. Love those embedded systems! JimT
You Go, Jim! What an inspiration! What a guy! :-D 2MileHill
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
learning new stuff.
It's great, if you can make time for it. But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005) AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework :mad:. Getting *NEW* functionality is great - but having to relear *existing* ways of doing stuff gets on my nerves. But then again, it's only once every 2-3 years that you have to take that leap.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
Ashley van Gerven wrote:
But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005)
:confused: The IDE didn't change that much. It was mostly cosmetic as far as I saw.
Ashley van Gerven wrote:
AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework
Not as of Orcas - You'll be able to developer .NET 1.0 through to 3.5 in Orcas.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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I love it when all these younger programmers feel that that just because they where born in an era of more advanced technology, they are in fact more technologically savvy. The truth is programming is as much about, problem solving and dealing with people as it is with writing code. At 51, I enjoy the process, as much as the results.
Same here. "9. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces." I'm having too much fun to notice my workspace. As long as the temperature is comfortable, I'm good to go. These "computer programming sucks" guys have some good points, but on the whole I'd have to say they are whiners, the type of person that is jealous at the new employee who has new PC with a chip that is 0.4 GHz faster than theirs.
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
I am 53. I was the young hot-shot assembler/Fortran/C programmer. Also did the manager thing for 20 of those years along the way, but always kept programming. Then I had the bright idea that I could make 80-90% as much money just being a "Senior Programmer/Analyst" doing the fun stuff....programming, with only 30% of the headaches. So now I'm an "old" hot-shot C++(Unix)/C# .NET programmer. (I haven't stooped to Java, yet....we let our friends from other countries do that.) (to age bigots (Half Sigma), old does not mean COBOL and old does not mean "stuck") Meanwhile, this profession has afforded me the luxury of F-U money...I can retire any time I like. If tomorrow I decided I couldn't stand listening to my boss any more, I could just tell him "F-U", call it a career and go get an afternoon tee time. I'm not sure I would encourage any young person I know to go in this direction, A LOT has changed, but it's been a good ride. Joe
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What are you implying? You would like a sentence by sentence response to the longer one? Perhaps a dissertation? I'll get back to you after I get a research grant.
Heh - sorry. I just wanted to know what you thought about ideas such as :- In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English, and this further lowers the industry’s prestige. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. I am only accurately describing the fact that the typical white American thinks negatively of a profession that's predominately non-white. I actually understand what the guy is talking about. But I am not sure if all white-Americans feel that way. A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin. There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company (any company, not just Microsoft).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkWe're all just jealous we're lacking melanin. :laugh: I think this guy is a voice for a small group. Most of the people I've worked with haven't cared about the ethnic diversity but rather revelled in it. My only concern has been when a manager tells me I should be more like the visa worker who doesn't question anything. Hence I become the nail that gets pounded down when confronting issues. But that's minor. My dad gave me the same line when I wanted to stop for lunch, but his mexican worker didn't complain when not stopping. Minor matter. But truth be told I think that collectively we're the richer for the experience of working with people from different countries. Last job it was 4 Indians, 2 Russians, 1 Vietnamese, 1 Romanian, 1 Greek, 1 Chinese, 1 Palestinean, 2 African Americans, and about 5 Anglo Americans. And it was probably one of the best groups of people I've worked with.
This statement was never false.