Job Fraud by US IT Employers
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Two things come to mind: One, some IT jobs are so specialized until once you narrow the field down to qualified candidates, you aren't left with very many people. I'm thinking of the laundry lists of qualifications you see in typical job descriptions. So you may have a large pool of talent but very few who actually qualify for a specific job. Two, I wonder about the general programming skills of this supposed pool of programmers. Do they have a solid understanding of data structures and algorithms? Do they have a sense of how to write maintainable code? Do they even write code? Can they apply what they know to new technologies? Or do they simply cobble together solutions that has let them get by thus far?
Or perhaps a 3rd reason ... Your home and suitable unfilled jobs may not be in your city or even in your state. And moving your home and your family is not a viable option. Or perhaps a 4th reason ... You have been raising a family and been away from "the job" for a while, even though you have kept abreast of recent developments, your job applications get ignored. and no doubt other reasons are relevant.
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Shog9 wrote:
Heh... Brilliant...
I believe you refer to my argument? :-D
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Richie308 wrote:
The point is that employers are purposely and deliberately finding any way they can to disqualify American workers through sheer technicalities, just to enable them to hire non-US citizens. Watch the video. It's plain as the nose on your face.
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Shog9 wrote:
(you were spoofing the common excuse for piracy, right?)
Actually I wasn't, but now that you put it like that, I can clearly see the similarity in argument :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
I think there are several different scenarios here that can't all have one single generic answer. I wouldn't want someone doing the same work you and I do at a 40K salary. That would be devaluing it. But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether. There are instances of the former and the latter here in the States - people need to know that, and understand the differences. Most of the time, people just assume that only one of these scenarios exist and provide a bunch of flawed arguments supporting their case.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
Actually, no. See my reply to CG. People have to stop trying to see things in black and white.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Or perhaps a 3rd reason ... Your home and suitable unfilled jobs may not be in your city or even in your state. And moving your home and your family is not a viable option. Or perhaps a 4th reason ... You have been raising a family and been away from "the job" for a while, even though you have kept abreast of recent developments, your job applications get ignored. and no doubt other reasons are relevant.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Or perhaps a 4th reason ... You have been raising a family and been away from "the job" for a while, even though you have kept abreast of recent developments, your job applications get ignored.
That has happened to quite a few people I know (mostly wives who take time off to have a baby, and then find it tough to get back into a decent job).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Shog9 wrote:
(you were spoofing the common excuse for piracy, right?)
Actually I wasn't, but now that you put it like that, I can clearly see the similarity in argument :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
I think there are several different scenarios here that can't all have one single generic answer. I wouldn't want someone doing the same work you and I do at a 40K salary. That would be devaluing it. But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether. There are instances of the former and the latter here in the States - people need to know that, and understand the differences. Most of the time, people just assume that only one of these scenarios exist and provide a bunch of flawed arguments supporting their case.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkBut this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified. That's what makes it so outrageous.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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But this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified. That's what makes it so outrageous.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
But this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified.
Yes, I got that. That is actually wrong (in multiple ways). But I just hope people don't translate that to meaning that every H1B or Green Card employee here is a programmer who's stealing a job from a skilled American citizen.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
I think there are several different scenarios here that can't all have one single generic answer. I wouldn't want someone doing the same work you and I do at a 40K salary. That would be devaluing it. But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether. There are instances of the former and the latter here in the States - people need to know that, and understand the differences. Most of the time, people just assume that only one of these scenarios exist and provide a bunch of flawed arguments supporting their case.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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On one side there's the argument that there are 1000s of skilled yet unemployed American programmers. On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. In fact developer positions remain open for several months because of the difficulty in getting the right candidates. Somehow this doesn't add up. If there are 1000s of quality candidates out there, how come they do not show interest in these job openings? You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Hmm... One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Yes, that will always be so. They'd have to be stupid not to do that though :-) But the way to fight that is to improve your skills and to work hard at making sure you are worth the company's money. I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Hmm... One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
On one side there's the argument that there are 1000s of skilled yet unemployed American programmers. On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. In fact developer positions remain open for several months because of the difficulty in getting the right candidates. Somehow this doesn't add up. If there are 1000s of quality candidates out there, how come they do not show interest in these job openings? You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr. Marc
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Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time.
Uh-huh. We just filled a new position, and pickings were slim. But then, that's for a position in a small town in the upper midwest paying... somewhat below average wages for the area. Frankly, we got better than we deserved. I assumed things were better elsewhere...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr.
I believe the minimum pay for an H1B employee is 50,000 - which comes to $24/hr (not great, but not the same as $5/hr either) :-) So if they are being offered $5/hr they must be quite bad!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time.
Uh-huh. We just filled a new position, and pickings were slim. But then, that's for a position in a small town in the upper midwest paying... somewhat below average wages for the area. Frankly, we got better than we deserved. I assumed things were better elsewhere...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Yes, that will always be so. They'd have to be stupid not to do that though :-) But the way to fight that is to improve your skills and to work hard at making sure you are worth the company's money. I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
