Job Fraud by US IT Employers
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But this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified. That's what makes it so outrageous.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
But this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified.
Yes, I got that. That is actually wrong (in multiple ways). But I just hope people don't translate that to meaning that every H1B or Green Card employee here is a programmer who's stealing a job from a skilled American citizen.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
I think there are several different scenarios here that can't all have one single generic answer. I wouldn't want someone doing the same work you and I do at a 40K salary. That would be devaluing it. But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether. There are instances of the former and the latter here in the States - people need to know that, and understand the differences. Most of the time, people just assume that only one of these scenarios exist and provide a bunch of flawed arguments supporting their case.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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On one side there's the argument that there are 1000s of skilled yet unemployed American programmers. On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. In fact developer positions remain open for several months because of the difficulty in getting the right candidates. Somehow this doesn't add up. If there are 1000s of quality candidates out there, how come they do not show interest in these job openings? You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Hmm... One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Yes, that will always be so. They'd have to be stupid not to do that though :-) But the way to fight that is to improve your skills and to work hard at making sure you are worth the company's money. I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Hmm... One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
On one side there's the argument that there are 1000s of skilled yet unemployed American programmers. On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. In fact developer positions remain open for several months because of the difficulty in getting the right candidates. Somehow this doesn't add up. If there are 1000s of quality candidates out there, how come they do not show interest in these job openings? You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr. Marc
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Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time.
Uh-huh. We just filled a new position, and pickings were slim. But then, that's for a position in a small town in the upper midwest paying... somewhat below average wages for the area. Frankly, we got better than we deserved. I assumed things were better elsewhere...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr.
I believe the minimum pay for an H1B employee is 50,000 - which comes to $24/hr (not great, but not the same as $5/hr either) :-) So if they are being offered $5/hr they must be quite bad!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time.
Uh-huh. We just filled a new position, and pickings were slim. But then, that's for a position in a small town in the upper midwest paying... somewhat below average wages for the area. Frankly, we got better than we deserved. I assumed things were better elsewhere...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Christian Graus wrote:
But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Yes, that will always be so. They'd have to be stupid not to do that though :-) But the way to fight that is to improve your skills and to work hard at making sure you are worth the company's money. I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig
I'm not sure that's a good thing :~
Want robust software? Use the new Vista Kernel Transaction Manager[^]
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig
I'm not sure that's a good thing :~
Want robust software? Use the new Vista Kernel Transaction Manager[^]
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
Warren Stevens wrote:
I'm not sure that's a good thing
Well, it's in light gray - so, that's something to be cheery about I suppose.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
Yes, there's a lot of generalization both ways. The truth is probably somewhere along the middle.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Warren Stevens wrote:
I'm not sure that's a good thing
Well, it's in light gray - so, that's something to be cheery about I suppose.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkAlways look on the bright side of life... :-D
Want robust software? Use the new Vista Kernel Transaction Manager[^]
www.IconsReview.com[^] Huge list of stock icon collections (both free and commercial)
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr.
I believe the minimum pay for an H1B employee is 50,000 - which comes to $24/hr (not great, but not the same as $5/hr either) :-) So if they are being offered $5/hr they must be quite bad!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkOn thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link:) Ya, i needed a new sig, and even if you didn't mean it quite the way i took it, i still liked it.
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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YouTube Video On Avoiding U.S. Job Applicants Angers Programmers IT professionals criticize a law firm's video play-by-play description on how to circumvent the PERM process in favor of H-1B visas. http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199905192[^] This law firm actually held a conference to advise attendees on the best ways to avoid qualified American job-seekers. If this doesn't typify why people hate lawyers, I don't know what does. The article contains a link to the video that criticizes the conference.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
H1B Bills purport to help solve the Technology gap in US industry, but really all they do is hold down wages of Information Technology professionals. I think the really reason that H1B exists is to make sure that the MBA's get payed more than the IT guys. And this article goes a long way to providing proof.
Steven S. Ashley
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Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkQuit whining about the H1Bs. For the IT industry to stay competitive in a free market scenario it has to go with the best quality at the best price available. If you want 200K a year to make web apps - you are going to be dissapointed. It's capitalism so get used to it. Protectionism of domestic industry in the face of competition is a communist measure and I thought you all are against that form of government, right? I think the pay for programmers is quite reasonable for what programmers do. Programming is a job done equally well sitting anywhere in the world. If the wages here become too high there won't be any programmers in the country left. BTW I am not on an H1b. The next thing industry needs to do is import doctors and lawyers so that their fees go down too :-)
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Quit whining about the H1Bs. For the IT industry to stay competitive in a free market scenario it has to go with the best quality at the best price available. If you want 200K a year to make web apps - you are going to be dissapointed. It's capitalism so get used to it. Protectionism of domestic industry in the face of competition is a communist measure and I thought you all are against that form of government, right? I think the pay for programmers is quite reasonable for what programmers do. Programming is a job done equally well sitting anywhere in the world. If the wages here become too high there won't be any programmers in the country left. BTW I am not on an H1b. The next thing industry needs to do is import doctors and lawyers so that their fees go down too :-)
Tanveer Ansari 1 wrote:
Quit whining about the H1Bs.
You've got to be freaking kidding me - unless you accidentally replied to the wrong post. :~
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
On thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
On thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Yes, that's automatically enforced. In the H1B application form, there's a column where they have a list of avg salaries based on city/job-title. And the pay-offer for the H1B applicant has to match that to qualify for the Visa. H1Ber exploitation occurs primarily because the H1B employee is tied to his employer. To change jobs, he needs a new H1B (done via a Visa transfer). Some shady companies abuse this to over-work employees or not give them the documented salary etc. If H1Bers can change jobs (as if they were on a temporary green card), there wouldn't be any H1B abuse at all. Though personally, I don't know anyone on an H1B who's under-paid. All my H1B friends make way more than the industry average. But I do believe that there are a lot of H1Bers being exploited too (just that I don't know of anyone personally who has been).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link
