Job Fraud by US IT Employers
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I know it's tough, but I sometimes feel people exaggerate how some super-talented folks are unemployed because someone stole their jobs by working for cheap.
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
And there are people who exaggerate the other way, and say that Americans don't deserve the jobs because Americans are just stupid and lazy. Any generalization like that is just bigotry, plain and simple.
Yes, there's a lot of generalization both ways. The truth is probably somewhere along the middle.
Regards, Nish
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Warren Stevens wrote:
I'm not sure that's a good thing
Well, it's in light gray - so, that's something to be cheery about I suppose.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkAlways look on the bright side of life... :-D
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Of course you can. Offer them a salary of $5/hr.
I believe the minimum pay for an H1B employee is 50,000 - which comes to $24/hr (not great, but not the same as $5/hr either) :-) So if they are being offered $5/hr they must be quite bad!
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkOn thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Wow - I just noticed I am on your sig :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link:) Ya, i needed a new sig, and even if you didn't mean it quite the way i took it, i still liked it.
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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YouTube Video On Avoiding U.S. Job Applicants Angers Programmers IT professionals criticize a law firm's video play-by-play description on how to circumvent the PERM process in favor of H-1B visas. http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199905192[^] This law firm actually held a conference to advise attendees on the best ways to avoid qualified American job-seekers. If this doesn't typify why people hate lawyers, I don't know what does. The article contains a link to the video that criticizes the conference.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
H1B Bills purport to help solve the Technology gap in US industry, but really all they do is hold down wages of Information Technology professionals. I think the really reason that H1B exists is to make sure that the MBA's get payed more than the IT guys. And this article goes a long way to providing proof.
Steven S. Ashley
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Shog9 wrote:
One of my brothers, who in my (admittedly biased) opinion is very skilled, spent nearly three years after graduation in four different cities across two states looking for work as a programmer. No takers. I have several friends who've gone even longer after graduation with no employment in their chosen field. Frankly, i've no idea what to attribute this to. Poor resume skills? Employers looking for an alphabet soup of trendy technologies instead of the fundamentals being taught in CS classes? Bad luck?
That's definitely odd. Pretty much every CPian who's posted about their company looking for people have complained that they find it so damn difficult to get good people. Many have given up trying to find good candidates as it just wastes their time. If your brother couldn't get a job for three whole years, I'd say it would be a combination of poor resume skills, bad luck, and quite possibly not knowing where to look for the right job.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkQuit whining about the H1Bs. For the IT industry to stay competitive in a free market scenario it has to go with the best quality at the best price available. If you want 200K a year to make web apps - you are going to be dissapointed. It's capitalism so get used to it. Protectionism of domestic industry in the face of competition is a communist measure and I thought you all are against that form of government, right? I think the pay for programmers is quite reasonable for what programmers do. Programming is a job done equally well sitting anywhere in the world. If the wages here become too high there won't be any programmers in the country left. BTW I am not on an H1b. The next thing industry needs to do is import doctors and lawyers so that their fees go down too :-)
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Quit whining about the H1Bs. For the IT industry to stay competitive in a free market scenario it has to go with the best quality at the best price available. If you want 200K a year to make web apps - you are going to be dissapointed. It's capitalism so get used to it. Protectionism of domestic industry in the face of competition is a communist measure and I thought you all are against that form of government, right? I think the pay for programmers is quite reasonable for what programmers do. Programming is a job done equally well sitting anywhere in the world. If the wages here become too high there won't be any programmers in the country left. BTW I am not on an H1b. The next thing industry needs to do is import doctors and lawyers so that their fees go down too :-)
Tanveer Ansari 1 wrote:
Quit whining about the H1Bs.
You've got to be freaking kidding me - unless you accidentally replied to the wrong post. :~
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
On thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
On thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Yes, that's automatically enforced. In the H1B application form, there's a column where they have a list of avg salaries based on city/job-title. And the pay-offer for the H1B applicant has to match that to qualify for the Visa. H1Ber exploitation occurs primarily because the H1B employee is tied to his employer. To change jobs, he needs a new H1B (done via a Visa transfer). Some shady companies abuse this to over-work employees or not give them the documented salary etc. If H1Bers can change jobs (as if they were on a temporary green card), there wouldn't be any H1B abuse at all. Though personally, I don't know anyone on an H1B who's under-paid. All my H1B friends make way more than the industry average. But I do believe that there are a lot of H1Bers being exploited too (just that I don't know of anyone personally who has been).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Richie308 wrote:
The point is that employers are purposely and deliberately finding any way they can to disqualify American workers through sheer technicalities, just to enable them to hire non-US citizens. Watch the video. It's plain as the nose on your face.
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Richie308 wrote:
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
Actually, no. See my reply to CG. People have to stop trying to see things in black and white.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkThis is sick. I myself an immigrant, this is not fair.
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Richie308 wrote:
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
Actually, no. See my reply to CG. People have to stop trying to see things in black and white.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkOf course, I see a little headline like this show up in Gmail this morning: Hire Programmers Offshore - www.supportresort.net - Quality Indian .NET Programmers From $3.36 per hour. It's easy! That's what American companies want to see. Labor that's almost $3/hr less than the current minimum wage. I mean, how else would the CEO be able to make his yacht payment? ~bob
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Richie308 wrote:
The point is that employers are purposely and deliberately finding any way they can to disqualify American workers through sheer technicalities, just to enable them to hire non-US citizens. Watch the video. It's plain as the nose on your face.
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Richie308 wrote:
It all comes down to whose ox is being gored, Christian.
Actually, no. See my reply to CG. People have to stop trying to see things in black and white.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Richie308 wrote:
But this matter does not address the case of someone who can't write a simple program and wants 90K. The lawyers were helping attendees to learn how to disqualify even applicants who are extremely well qualified.
Yes, I got that. That is actually wrong (in multiple ways). But I just hope people don't translate that to meaning that every H1B or Green Card employee here is a programmer who's stealing a job from a skilled American citizen.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
But I just hope people don't translate that to meaning that every H1B or Green Card employee here is a programmer who's stealing a job from a skilled American citizen.
Even though that's not the issue, it's cases like this that give some people that impression.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I personally know 3 friends that have lost their jobs to outsourcing several years ago. They all have great programming skills. Of the 3, 2 eventually lost their houses, because they were unable to find another job in a timely manner. Someone explain to me how cases like this benefit the U.S. economy.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Depends on how you look at it. Everyone wants to pay as little as possible for things. No-one wants to spend money they can keep. Do you think that's a good rationale for devaluing what it is that you and I do for a living ?
I think there are several different scenarios here that can't all have one single generic answer. I wouldn't want someone doing the same work you and I do at a 40K salary. That would be devaluing it. But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether. There are instances of the former and the latter here in the States - people need to know that, and understand the differences. Most of the time, people just assume that only one of these scenarios exist and provide a bunch of flawed arguments supporting their case.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNish, I am sorry, but this is killing me to read. I was just going to browse through the responses and keep my mouth shut, but I can't. I used to work for one of the Fortune 100 companies here in the states. They are one of the top supporters of H1B visas. I was there as a contractor. I was not even a developer at the time, but a simple PC support guy. I ran the entire IT department for this facility and 2 satellite facilities as well. I was also told that there was -0% chance I would ever be hired as an employee because of the cost (salary, benefits, vacation, paperwork, etc). I WATCHED as this company let 3 kids on a college work/study program go and replaced them with 4 H1B visa candidates. These kids were studying to become electrical engineers (I know, not developers, but the same principal applies) and were removed from this facility so they could be replaced by less expensive work force. These kids were very good at what they did and they all 3 worked very hard! The candidates they brought in did not even speak english. Three of them had to talk to the fourth and the fourth had to try to convey his thoughts in a VERY broken English. Now, before anyone starts screaming racism, stop. I couldn't care any less what color your skin is or how you pronounce your words. That has NOTHING to do with it. I grew up as a "military brat" and was raised around people of all ethnic backgrounds. If I don't like someone, it's because they are an @$$hole, not because their skin is not a pink color. Companies are simply looking for ways to cut there costs so their upper management can continue to enjoy $1M bonuses and expensive trips to exotic locations for "business meetings". Big business has shelved their ethics to promote a better bottom line while not having to reduce their C?O's (CEO, CIO, CFO, CTO, and whomever else) benefits packages. I worked as a developer for a small company in North Carolina and I watched their CEO and CIO squander money away on renting luxury yachts, renting yacht clubs for training camps, etc and they were spending this money on EXISTING CLIENTS!! All the while, my profit sharing check went further and further down until it finally hit $0.00. Since becoming a full-time, professional developer, I have interviewed for quite a number of jobs in the state of Florida. I was actually offered a developer job in Ft. Lauderdale, FL for $45k/yr doing VB.NET and SQL Server developement. The salary they offered me wouldn't have gotten me a 2BR apartment within 15 miles of
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But if someone who can barely write a simple program wants a 90K job and won't accept anything less, and then blames not getting a job on outsourcing or foreign workers, that's a whole different situation altogether.
Oh, it's always easier to blame someone else for your problems, I know that's true. And it's plain to me that there's no shortage of work on our end of the scale, that's also obvious. But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
But, it's still the case that if an employer can get someone good for less, it is to their benefit to do so.
In my experience, most employers don't actually know the difference between a good developer and a not-so-good developer. As long as they get reams of code, they believe they've gotten value. Functionality, maintainability, and even ROI are all afterthoughts.
Grim
(aka Toby)
MCDBA, MCSD, MCP+SB
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The law is written in black and white. This is a black and white issue. I hope the legal hammer falls hard on them.
The Law is never black or white. The Law is what can be proven in a courtroom or settled between two lawers. When your sued, you get a quick lession in the black and white nature of the law.
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On one side there's the argument that there are 1000s of skilled yet unemployed American programmers. On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. In fact developer positions remain open for several months because of the difficulty in getting the right candidates. Somehow this doesn't add up. If there are 1000s of quality candidates out there, how come they do not show interest in these job openings? You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
[...] On the other side, you see companies complaining that they are finding it extremely difficult to hire quality developers. [...] You cannot have a skilled pool of unemployed candidates and also have unfilled job openings together, can you?
Of course you can, and here is how... Companies are looking for high-quality developers. High-quality developers (should) produce higher-quality code, resulting in better designs, more robust and better performing implementations, less defects. But they no longer believe that they need to actually pay a high-quality salary to get them. The old adage you get what you pay for seems to have been forgotten. Have a look at a site like Monster, and compare titles against salary ranges. Companies are looking for senior-level developers for only $40-60K, and principal-level developers for only $60-80K. Throw in 2 weeks of vacation time, minimal 401K participation, no profit sharing or bonus plan and you can quickly see that this is not a great deal for someone that has been developing software professionally for more than 15 years. To better explain why that is not a great deal, remember that many older and experienced (i.e. senior- and principal-level) developers are not the cheap-1-bedroom-basement-apartment-living-ramen-noodle-eating-20-somethings that they used to be. Many are now married, and/or have kids, and/or have a newer car, and/or have a mortgage, and/or have more debt. It is not that they do not want to take a pay cut, it is that they simply cannot take a pay cut. When you have a house, wife and kids, you cannot just up and move to a smaller apartment on a whim all that easily (ask anyone that has a house - storage would be a nightmare). As to why we are in this situation, I am not going to provide any comments because it will only start a flame war. Peace!
-=- James
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On thing you need to know, Nish, is that the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders. This isn't just to protect American, permanent resident or green card, workers from being unfairly undercut, but to prevent H1B visa holders from being exploited.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
[...] the law requires employers to pay H1B visa holders comparable salaries as non-visa holders.
Sounds like another reason to drop salaries - it makes the H1Bs even cheaper... :/ Peace!
-=- James
Please rate this message - let me know if I helped or not! * * *If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
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