Best job in the world...except you have no life
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
productivity decreases the more hours
The Break Even Analysis concept can be applied here to an extent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_even_analysis[^]
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
From the productivity side, I would have thought the law of diminishing returns applies more to this situation. Economics 101 :) I believe some studies how been done into the maximum number of hours different positions can work before no additional output can be registered. Perhaps someone with more time today would like to google it? Meanwhile I have code to refactor ...
I'm largely language agnostic
After a while they all bug me :doh:
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
They told me my first day on the job that a 48 hour work week was mandatory at my current job. It only lasted a few months until a major project deadline was missed, but I think it also killed morale. Things are a lot more sane around here now with only a few times when long hours are expected. Though, I work from home and I'm watching my 10 month old son rake the carpet with a little plastic rake as I type this, so I really can't complain, so it ended up working out for me, but their attitude towards would scare me off. There's no way I would take a job like that in this job market right now.
No, it's a man given right. Some things are cow given. Like milk. Milk doesn't kill, but is a much better calcium source than guns are. - Joergen Sigvardsson
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
as this was a great company
By that fact it is not a great company. I wish you had asked them why they do things so inefficiently that they require everyone to work an extra 8 hours a week. Marc
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I am not sure if excessive work helped improved productivity though.
That's point. There are more reports of how productivity decreases the more hours your work rather than increases.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
There are more reports of how productivity decreases the more hours your work rather than increases.
Certainly true from my experience. People are prone to make more errors when they work crazy hours. A lot of time is then spent fixing those...
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This exempt[^] business makes no sense, IMHO. I talked to an electrical engineer that works at a construction company - they actually need a written permit to work overtime because they are paid hourly; in fact most of them like to have a few extra hours a week and a few extra dollars in their pockets. However, I've never met a "non-exempt" software engineer :~
"However, I've never met a "non-exempt" software engineer" Sure you have. They're called "self-employed" software engineers. And they will usually work even more than 48 hours per week. However, they're working for themselves, not someone else's wallet which definitely helps in the moral department. When I first began writing code for a living 25 years ago, I was non-exempt. A large project on the drawing board required a LOT of OT from everyone. The team was a mix of exempt and non-exempt coders with the non-exempt being primarily very young, single folks with small outside commitments (i.e. no wife/husband, kids, their own parents were younger and didnt need assistance from them, etc). As this project went on, the OT went up naturally and after it was implemented the non-exempt (myself included) were giving "promotions" to exempt status. Why? Well, not only were we decent coders but management no longer HAD TO pay us that OT. I know that I earned nearly 80K that first year of work - most of it was OT since my starting salary was 26K. My boss was actually pissed because it was well more than he was earning. I learned, immediately, via that experience AND from discussing it with a contractor in another department that I either go into contracting or die in the company. Contracting COULD lead to self-employment (back then). Today one can become self-employeed much via much simpler means. I took his advice. I will never, ever, ever work in a cube-farm, 8-6, with idiot managers who know 1/2 of what I know but get paid 2x what I do because they screwed up somewhere else in the company and were shuffled around, the re-orgs, the politics, the as*-kissing, the nuances of cubical living and having to fit my creativity within certain hours only AND having to sign agreements that anything I create or even think of is property of some other entity. Sorry. Get out if you can folks. 48 hours a week is nothing when you work for yourself but you enjoy every second of it! :) A horrible day being self-employed is far better than the best day at captive employment!
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
He literally was calculating how you spend your personal time? I think that alone would have been enough of a red flag to decline the position. Even if you spend 30 hours per week watching Seinfeld reruns. That's hardly the company's business.
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil Peart -
I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
Good for you with sticking to your guns. Seriously, we need more of this attitude in our industry to bring it to a more mature profession. I'm with Marc on this....what is wrong with the company that they mandate 48 hours a week. Sounds like poor management or under-staffing for their commitments.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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He literally was calculating how you spend your personal time? I think that alone would have been enough of a red flag to decline the position. Even if you spend 30 hours per week watching Seinfeld reruns. That's hardly the company's business.
BW
Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.
-- Neil PeartAgreed. I'd say that was the point where he graduated from pointy haired boss to creepy employee stalker.
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
Am I missing something? No - but they are.
'--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
Wow, that is insane. I'd never ever work 48 hours a week. Not for double my pay. Damn, I don't even have kids yet and I wouldn't consider it. Not to mention that you can't possible code that much. That's a 9.5 hour work day. Holy S batman, they are insane! Life isn't all about work.
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
Doesn't sound like a very family-friendly company.
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This exempt[^] business makes no sense, IMHO. I talked to an electrical engineer that works at a construction company - they actually need a written permit to work overtime because they are paid hourly; in fact most of them like to have a few extra hours a week and a few extra dollars in their pockets. However, I've never met a "non-exempt" software engineer :~
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40 hours is the absolute maximum I would be prepared to work full time in a given week, Ok there are the odd occasions which require working the odd evening or weekend, but that should be few and far between and should be rewarded with a day in lieu or some finacial recompense.
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Am I missing something?
No but it looks like that company is!
P Think of the environment; please don't print this message unless you really need to.
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Agreed. I'd say that was the point where he graduated from pointy haired boss to creepy employee stalker.
James L. Thomson wrote:
he graduated from pointy haired boss to creepy employee stalker.
:laugh: That's creepy, alright, when you think that he would look into a prospective employee's business outside of work...
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Interesting link. Definitely good ammo against the boss :-D
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Wow, that is insane. I'd never ever work 48 hours a week. Not for double my pay. Damn, I don't even have kids yet and I wouldn't consider it. Not to mention that you can't possible code that much. That's a 9.5 hour work day. Holy S batman, they are insane! Life isn't all about work.
ToddHileHoffer wrote:
Not to mention that you can't possible code that much. That's a 9.5 hour work day.
Yowza! What would i ever do with the other 8.5 hours?!
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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I went to an interview yesterday, a full day of meeting people, lunch with the VP, tour of the facility, etc. This was after two phone interviews, about 1.5 hours each. After the phone interviews I was excited to see the place and talk with the people and all through the day I saw some place that could be a very interesting environment to work in with great people. The day ended with an HR person who explained the benefits and compensation arrangement. Everything sounded great, then the ball was dropped. Everyone here works 48 hours a week she says. It wasn't, we have a lot to do so everyone puts in some extra time, it was 48 hours per week is mandatory and the minimum acceptable for a salaried employee. When I said I couldn't work 48 hour weeks she asked, in a stunned voice "Why not?". I explained that I have a family and outside activities, including pursueing a higher degree (which would add value to me as an employee) that I would like to continue enjoying. She sat there for a moment and I could see the confused look of "How can one have a life outside the company" on her face. I also explained to her the I am currently working at a position with similar duties making the same pay and only working 40 hours a week. There was disbelif on her face that such a place exsisted. The final meeting of the day was with my potential boss and he asked what I thought about the position. I said I thought it was a great opportunity and beleived I could add real value to the company, however, I can't work 48 hour weeks. Again the questions was "Why not?". I explained to him also about family and having an outside life. He asked about my activities and began calculating the hours it took up each week, then said "I think you have a conflict." So my life is a conflict of work. I was really disappointed as this was a great company but just don't understand how they can seemingly be so out of touch with reality. The company is my life attitude vanished a long time ago. Given equal duties, pay, communting time, etc. why would anyone chose to work longer hours? Am I missing something?
only two letters away from being an asset
I used to work for a consulting company. They were sending us to clients, and clients were sometimes requesting us to work more time. When this happened (and it happened a lot on a project I worked), the company I was working for (this company name is Avanade, a joint venture between MS and Accenture, formerly Anderson Consulting) was charging the extra hours to the client, but we were never paid for overtime. I think this is pure robbery. Needless to say, I didn't not work for them for a long time and I stressed that reason for me leaving them.
----- Formerly MP(2) If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown
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40 hours is the absolute maximum I would be prepared to work full time in a given week, Ok there are the odd occasions which require working the odd evening or weekend, but that should be few and far between and should be rewarded with a day in lieu or some finacial recompense.
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Am I missing something?
No but it looks like that company is!
P Think of the environment; please don't print this message unless you really need to.
norm .net wrote:
Ok there are the odd occasions which require working the odd evening or weekend, but that should be few and far between
Where I work we are expected only 40 hours, now some of us work from home on weekends or evenings because we love what we do and have deadlines looming but my PM has made it perfectly clear he doesnt not expect/require it.
"Okay, I give up: which is NOT a real programming language????" Michael Bergman
"Well yes, it is an Integer, but it's a metrosexual Integer. For all we know, under all that hair gel it could be a Boolean." Tom Welch
"Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." Bill Gates