This poll is gay
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
'Why men don't iron'
They don't??!! WTF! I'm taking this up with my wife tonight!
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
Where is the source for this coming from?
The most recent book I am reading is called 'Why men don't iron'. I have about 5-6 books on the topic, actually.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So do they test whether an animal is gay then?
An animal that has a penis, tries to have sex with other animals, that also have a penis, and is not interested in animals with a vagina, is gay.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
This all sounds very flakey to me
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night or this book you mentioned is based on flakey science. It's not my field but I don't think they can look at brains and identify which one's have homosexual tendencies. What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality, I don't believe that can be true. I think it's surroundings; many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men. Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest. So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past. PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Trash, no human behaviour is that deterministic.
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
And you propagate the prejudice that gay men are somehow feminised.
Would you like a list of the ways in which male and female brains differ, and another ( exactly the same ) list of ways that homosexual mens brains differ from heterosexual mens brains ? Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing, or inferior. It *is* inferior, on average, in some ways, but, it is superior, on average, in others. Being female, or having a feminised brain may play to different strengths, but it's hardly an insult.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist :) For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men. Those who have an exclusively homosexual identity and form long term relationships with other men are a subset of those who like a bit of buggery.
Christian Graus wrote:
Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing
No it doesn't. It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
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See title. :mad:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
I think he was being facetious. I suspect there are some religious undertones there - not unsimilar to the burning of witches of the Christian church...
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
bestiality
LOL - I'm sure that lots of bestiality occurs in the animals world...
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
k, trans-species relationships then :)
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Christian Graus wrote:
What basis do you have to say this ? Anything more than opinion ?
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist :) For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men. Those who have an exclusively homosexual identity and form long term relationships with other men are a subset of those who like a bit of buggery.
Christian Graus wrote:
Really, your statement is sexist, it implies that a feminised brain is somehow a bad thing
No it doesn't. It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me. :-)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4% ( who are part of that 7.3% ) actually considering themselves to be gay.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Well, I'm sorry about their feelings, although I wasn' attempting to make that accusation. Either way, whatever social baggage comes with the science, I am mostly interested in the scientific proof on offer ( and, to be frank, I couldn't give a damn why people are gay, I brought it up mostly out of interest, after reading stats on public perceptions, in a book I am reading because it deals mostly with brain differences between the sexes )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
You and a lot of other people. I'm interested to know on what basis.
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night or this book you mentioned is based on flakey science. It's not my field but I don't think they can look at brains and identify which one's have homosexual tendencies. What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality, I don't believe that can be true. I think it's surroundings; many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men. Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest. So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past. PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
What you're saying sounds like they can manipulate animals brains to produce homosexuality
Yes, that is what I said.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Either science has made huge leaps whilst I was asleep last night
The books I am reading don't go further back than the 1990's, so, not quite overnight.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
I don't believe that can be true.
Well, your ability to believe something isn't really a factor in my process of deciding what seems credible, sorry. Have you done any reading on the subject, do you have a background in this area, or are you just presenting your gut feeling ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
many young men are gay because they've been introduced to the lifestyle by older men.
OK, I find that view incredible, because it suggests that you believe if you met the right older guys, you'd be gay. I don't believe that's possible, for a second. On what do you base this assumption ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
Also look at the homosexual sex life in prisons, when faced with no choice other choices might become of interest.
Yes, as you say, this is an extreme circumstance, and does not speak to choices, as much as drive. The book talks about this, actually, when it covers the arguments of those who claim sexuality as a social construct.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
So where next? are pot smokers hard-wired to like the effect? Looking at the indigenous endo-cannabinoid system in the brain that seems highly likely, some say it shows a common genetic past.
Someone else mentioned bestiality and incest, on this thread. Sexuality is different. To be attracted to men is a normal, human condition, however you look at it. The thing that's different here is that a man has the sexual desires we'd generally associate with a woman. Why is it so amazing to think that this means his brain is partially feminised ?
AndyKEnZ wrote:
PS my dog is as horny as hell of late (it's summer) and tries his best with our male cat! maybe he's hard-wired in the "any port in a storm" mode.
As per your prison example, if there's no other options, sometimes a usually unpalatable option starts to look good, for some.
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Christian Graus wrote:
'Why men don't iron'
They don't??!! WTF! I'm taking this up with my wife tonight!
Well, I sure as hell don't. I wear crinkled shirts as a protest that she hasn't done it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Sort of. I'm saying that some men are probably 'wired' as hetero, but develop a sexual preference for homo, for a variety of reasons.
OK, fair enough. I'm willing to accept a combination nature/nurture argument, although I'd be interested to see something to back that up. The bit I'm sure of, is that there are definate brain structure issues that are at the root of homosexuality, in general.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me. :-)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4% ( who are part of that 7.3% ) actually considering themselves to be gay.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Well, I'm sorry about their feelings, although I wasn' attempting to make that accusation. Either way, whatever social baggage comes with the science, I am mostly interested in the scientific proof on offer ( and, to be frank, I couldn't give a damn why people are gay, I brought it up mostly out of interest, after reading stats on public perceptions, in a book I am reading because it deals mostly with brain differences between the sexes )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me.
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same ;)
Christian Graus wrote:
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4%
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
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OK, fair enough. I'm willing to accept a combination nature/nurture argument, although I'd be interested to see something to back that up. The bit I'm sure of, is that there are definate brain structure issues that are at the root of homosexuality, in general.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I'm sure you're right, in general.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me.
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same ;)
Christian Graus wrote:
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4%
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same
*grin* I can be guilty of that, at times. In this case, I've bought and read a great many books on the topic.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
Yeah, the book I am reading now, covers the reasons that Kinsey's research was flawed, and why all the studies they refer to, show a far more consistent range of values, that do not approach those that Kinsey reported.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I'm sure you're right, in general.
*grin* any talk about brain sex differences, needs the caveat 'in general' inserted a lot :P
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct? Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach. As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality! Elaine :rose:
Visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct? Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach. As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality! Elaine :rose:
Visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct?
The book admits that it can't be proven, in the sense that we (obviously) cannot experiment on humans. It does, obviously, cover a great deal of scientific evidence to back their claims, and examines the claims of those who believe that we're all essentially asexual, that there's no such thing as brain difference ( which is an untenable position ) or that all men are equally capable of becoming homosexual, and the reasons why they feel this is not the case.
Trollslayer wrote:
Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach
The book is not about homosexuality, it covers it because it falls under the spectrum of male/female brain differences, which is what the book is about.
Trollslayer wrote:
As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality!
I guess that depends on your peer group :-)
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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digital man wrote:
an intellectual perspective
My interest is entirely in this regard. In fact, my interest was in brain structure, and male/female difference, the gay thing just kind of happens to be covered in the same books.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Yes, of course: I was aiming at twat_stateler and his cronies and, sadly, missed!
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I
Christian Graus wrote:
...external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
In my experience, I would say of some of the gay people I know that they are only so because they have forsaken the traditional male pursuit of women. They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men. I think they have a mistaken interpretation of homosexuality, but they form part of gay demographics.
Brady Kelly wrote:
They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men.
They aren't gay, they're muslims.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Voted 4
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
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Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired?
I *hate* beer, and always have. It causes no end of social problems. Someone has offered to buy me a beer at Rocklahoma, that's pretty much how people say 'I'd like to meet you'. I've said yes, understanding the intention was to meet, over something that is generally accepted to be universally desired. So, I am the 'gay' of the beer drinking situation, I don't fit in with the average. That's as gay as I get, let me add.
Shog9 wrote:
I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made?
Interesting question. My answer would be that while the brain is hard wired, sexually, in the womb, the brain continues to forge paths during childhood more easily than it does in later life, and a music instrument is one thing that especially is easier to take up later, if it was taken up earlier ( languages are another, and they are linked in this regard, I believe ). This has nothing to do with violin per se, any musical training in a child, results in being more easily able to pick up any instrument later. I recently finished a book on which parts of the brain work in what ways, to combine to cause us to enjoy music, and it had a chapter on this.
Shog9 wrote:
I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame?
Not really, at least, not in my view. The book claims that the gay lobby takes the position that we're all gay, if we want to be. This is, in my view, wrong, and just creates more bigotry. Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out. I've also seen people online discussing how their child is gay, and being advised that kicking them out of the house will make them rethink thier 'decision'. In both cases, it seems to me that accepting that homosexuality is a part of the human condition, just like left handedness ( I'm a lefty, as it happens ), then several things become clear: 1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose As a result, I think that a
Christian Graus wrote:
1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose
I fully agree with you. As a gay woman, I knew from a very young age that I wasn't the so called "norm" of my friends or family for that matter. I have overcome people thinking that I have a disease to which they can "catch" or I can turn them. Of which I find amusing and tell them that the CEO of the queers gives us a microwave for every person we convert :laugh: Also men saying that they will be able to convert me back I just never found the right one... Give me a break... But to try and explain my rational to someone that has strong views and can't see past them it is very hard. I think it was wired in my brain somewhere in the womb. Do I have proof of that... no. But hopefully they will find it and maybe then people will be a little bit more accepting. Until then there are a few more hurdles to jump over.
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
Patrick Sears wrote:
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable.
So?
