This poll is gay
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
I find it remarkable that a Christian is arguing against for biological determinism against an atheist
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me. :-)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
For one, a very large amount of homosexual activity is performed by heterosexual (not closeted) men
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4% ( who are part of that 7.3% ) actually considering themselves to be gay.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
It does however imply that lots of gay men get pissed off at not being considered masculine.
Well, I'm sorry about their feelings, although I wasn' attempting to make that accusation. Either way, whatever social baggage comes with the science, I am mostly interested in the scientific proof on offer ( and, to be frank, I couldn't give a damn why people are gay, I brought it up mostly out of interest, after reading stats on public perceptions, in a book I am reading because it deals mostly with brain differences between the sexes )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me.
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same ;)
Christian Graus wrote:
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4%
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
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OK, fair enough. I'm willing to accept a combination nature/nurture argument, although I'd be interested to see something to back that up. The bit I'm sure of, is that there are definate brain structure issues that are at the root of homosexuality, in general.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
I'm sure you're right, in general.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I prefer to figure out what's right, then defend it, rather than choose the side that seems to suit me.
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same ;)
Christian Graus wrote:
Stats ? References ? Some men have homosexual sex, but claim to be hetero ( the studies I am reading about peak at 7.3 % of men having had homosexual sex, and 3-4%
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Or the last convincing book you read. I tend to do the same
*grin* I can be guilty of that, at times. In this case, I've bought and read a great many books on the topic.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Kinsey puts it at 37% for 1 or more homosexual experiences, regulars figure less. It's a very unreliable area of research by its nature.
Yeah, the book I am reading now, covers the reasons that Kinsey's research was flawed, and why all the studies they refer to, show a far more consistent range of values, that do not approach those that Kinsey reported.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I'm sure you're right, in general.
*grin* any talk about brain sex differences, needs the caveat 'in general' inserted a lot :P
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct? Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach. As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality! Elaine :rose:
Visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
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The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct? Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach. As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality! Elaine :rose:
Visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
The book claims that is what people believe, not that is is the case, correct?
The book admits that it can't be proven, in the sense that we (obviously) cannot experiment on humans. It does, obviously, cover a great deal of scientific evidence to back their claims, and examines the claims of those who believe that we're all essentially asexual, that there's no such thing as brain difference ( which is an untenable position ) or that all men are equally capable of becoming homosexual, and the reasons why they feel this is not the case.
Trollslayer wrote:
Sounds like it is about the common herd rather than homosexuality which is an interesting apporach
The book is not about homosexuality, it covers it because it falls under the spectrum of male/female brain differences, which is what the book is about.
Trollslayer wrote:
As to the idea of social pressure then surely that would be to deter someone from homosexuality!
I guess that depends on your peer group :-)
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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digital man wrote:
an intellectual perspective
My interest is entirely in this regard. In fact, my interest was in brain structure, and male/female difference, the gay thing just kind of happens to be covered in the same books.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Yes, of course: I was aiming at twat_stateler and his cronies and, sadly, missed!
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Christian Graus wrote:
...external influences can greatly increase the odds of a child being gay.
In my experience, I would say of some of the gay people I know that they are only so because they have forsaken the traditional male pursuit of women. They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men. I think they have a mistaken interpretation of homosexuality, but they form part of gay demographics.
Brady Kelly wrote:
They are normally asexual and prefer the company of men, not sex with men.
They aren't gay, they're muslims.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Voted 4
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
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Shog9 wrote:
I really like beer. Social pressure, or hard-wired?
I *hate* beer, and always have. It causes no end of social problems. Someone has offered to buy me a beer at Rocklahoma, that's pretty much how people say 'I'd like to meet you'. I've said yes, understanding the intention was to meet, over something that is generally accepted to be universally desired. So, I am the 'gay' of the beer drinking situation, I don't fit in with the average. That's as gay as I get, let me add.
Shog9 wrote:
I've heard that to be a really good violinist, you pretty much have to start training as a young child - your physical and mental makeup are still pliable at that point, later on you just won't be able to adapt. So, are violinists born... or made?
Interesting question. My answer would be that while the brain is hard wired, sexually, in the womb, the brain continues to forge paths during childhood more easily than it does in later life, and a music instrument is one thing that especially is easier to take up later, if it was taken up earlier ( languages are another, and they are linked in this regard, I believe ). This has nothing to do with violin per se, any musical training in a child, results in being more easily able to pick up any instrument later. I recently finished a book on which parts of the brain work in what ways, to combine to cause us to enjoy music, and it had a chapter on this.
Shog9 wrote:
I mean, it's kinda crude and all, but doesn't the whole discussion just boil down to who is to blame?
Not really, at least, not in my view. The book claims that the gay lobby takes the position that we're all gay, if we want to be. This is, in my view, wrong, and just creates more bigotry. Tell me I'm really gay too, and I'll smack you out. I've also seen people online discussing how their child is gay, and being advised that kicking them out of the house will make them rethink thier 'decision'. In both cases, it seems to me that accepting that homosexuality is a part of the human condition, just like left handedness ( I'm a lefty, as it happens ), then several things become clear: 1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose As a result, I think that a
Christian Graus wrote:
1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose
I fully agree with you. As a gay woman, I knew from a very young age that I wasn't the so called "norm" of my friends or family for that matter. I have overcome people thinking that I have a disease to which they can "catch" or I can turn them. Of which I find amusing and tell them that the CEO of the queers gives us a microwave for every person we convert :laugh: Also men saying that they will be able to convert me back I just never found the right one... Give me a break... But to try and explain my rational to someone that has strong views and can't see past them it is very hard. I think it was wired in my brain somewhere in the womb. Do I have proof of that... no. But hopefully they will find it and maybe then people will be a little bit more accepting. Until then there are a few more hurdles to jump over.
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Red Stateler wrote:
do you think we can cure it with a pill?
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable. There's no biological or social reason to think such is the case. Homosexuality does not compromise the health or stability of a species - in fact it seems quite the opposite in the animal kingdom. Homosexuality is very common in all mammal species.
Patrick Sears wrote:
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable.
So?
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Christian Graus wrote:
1 - a gay person is incapable of recruiting other people to be gay ( yes, I've heard people suggest this ) 2 - there is no point in having a prejudice against someone for something they did not choose
I fully agree with you. As a gay woman, I knew from a very young age that I wasn't the so called "norm" of my friends or family for that matter. I have overcome people thinking that I have a disease to which they can "catch" or I can turn them. Of which I find amusing and tell them that the CEO of the queers gives us a microwave for every person we convert :laugh: Also men saying that they will be able to convert me back I just never found the right one... Give me a break... But to try and explain my rational to someone that has strong views and can't see past them it is very hard. I think it was wired in my brain somewhere in the womb. Do I have proof of that... no. But hopefully they will find it and maybe then people will be a little bit more accepting. Until then there are a few more hurdles to jump over.
liona wrote:
Of which I find amusing and tell them that the CEO of the queers gives us a microwave for every person we convert
*grin* I like that you can laugh about it, I'd imagine I'd find such ignorance plain annoying.
liona wrote:
Also men saying that they will be able to convert me back I just never found the right one... Give me a break...
ROTFL - that's excellent.
liona wrote:
Do I have proof of that... no. But hopefully they will find it and maybe then people will be a little bit more accepting.
If you're interested, I have a list of books that I've read, mostly out of interest on brain sex differences, which do talk about a whole lot of studies that indicate exactly that, that your brain was wired in the womb to be attracted to other women. The one I am reading right now is here[^]. She also co-wrote a book called 'Brain Sex', which was my starting point for being fascinated in this stuff.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I think he was being facetious. I suspect there are some religious undertones there - not unsimilar to the burning of witches of the Christian church...
If he comes near me I'll show him what "Bible Thumping" really means. ;)
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'. Far better to argue for liberty and reason than mimic the naturalistic arguments from fascists of all stripes.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'.
Nice argument by appeal to emotion there. Doesn't change my point and the argument from naturalism is incredibly different than an argument based on social behavior. Pedophilia, rape, murder, theft blah blah blah are learned behaviors and rely on a human mind. Sexual preference is purely chemical. And certainly just because OTHER behaviors are common does NOT invalidate the argument that homosexuality is normal because it's common. That's like saying anything green is bad because your food turns green when it rots. Yes, there are other 'higher' arguments in favor of TOLERANCE of homosexuality but I was referring to treating homosexuality as a disease. There's no rational basis for such a treatment.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'.
Nice argument by appeal to emotion there. Doesn't change my point and the argument from naturalism is incredibly different than an argument based on social behavior. Pedophilia, rape, murder, theft blah blah blah are learned behaviors and rely on a human mind. Sexual preference is purely chemical. And certainly just because OTHER behaviors are common does NOT invalidate the argument that homosexuality is normal because it's common. That's like saying anything green is bad because your food turns green when it rots. Yes, there are other 'higher' arguments in favor of TOLERANCE of homosexuality but I was referring to treating homosexuality as a disease. There's no rational basis for such a treatment.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Pedophilia, rape, murder, theft blah blah blah are learned behaviors and rely on a human mind. Sexual preference is purely chemical.
Sociopathy is purely chemical.
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How common is 'very common' ? Greater than it is in humans ( that is, < 5% ) ? Of course, given that it's essentially caused by errors in brain programming during pregnancy, it's possible that some animals, in high stress or otherwise abnormal environments, would deviate from the norm. I'd be interested in sources, tho.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
How common is 'very common' ? Greater than it is in humans ( that is, < 5% ) ?
Perhaps I overstated it. It's about as common as in humans. Sources - I could point you to websites but you're capable of searching Google yourself. My information comes from books, though. I'll get you the titles if you're interested.
Christian Graus wrote:
Of course, given that it's essentially caused by errors in brain programming during pregnancy, it's possible that some animals, in high stress or otherwise abnormal environments, would deviate from the norm.
I like your terminology. It IS an error. I wouldn't call it a disease, but it is an error. Seems to be a mostly beneficial one though. What's really interesting is how consistently it occurs, and in so many species. You'd expect if it were really a problem it would get selected out through breeding (e.g., the lack of breeding).
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liona wrote:
Of which I find amusing and tell them that the CEO of the queers gives us a microwave for every person we convert
*grin* I like that you can laugh about it, I'd imagine I'd find such ignorance plain annoying.
liona wrote:
Also men saying that they will be able to convert me back I just never found the right one... Give me a break...
ROTFL - that's excellent.
liona wrote:
Do I have proof of that... no. But hopefully they will find it and maybe then people will be a little bit more accepting.
If you're interested, I have a list of books that I've read, mostly out of interest on brain sex differences, which do talk about a whole lot of studies that indicate exactly that, that your brain was wired in the womb to be attracted to other women. The one I am reading right now is here[^]. She also co-wrote a book called 'Brain Sex', which was my starting point for being fascinated in this stuff.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I'd imagine I'd find such ignorance plain annoying
I am just use to it by now. But I can also have fun with it :) As for the books I would love to have the list. I find it interesting. I am sure my partner who thinks I am odd at the best of times, will find it amusing that I will be reading "Why Men Don't Iron" LOL
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Patrick Sears wrote:
Pedophilia, rape, murder, theft blah blah blah are learned behaviors and rely on a human mind. Sexual preference is purely chemical.
Sociopathy is purely chemical.
True, but you'd have to argue you're born that way to make it relevant here. I know it happens but not as frequently as would be convenient to the argument. And honestly the only difference between being born sociopathic and being born homosexual is that sociopaths actively hurt people, which is unacceptable. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
This presumes it's some sort of disease or affliction which is otherwise undesirable.
So?
Just saying. You use the word 'cure' which betrays your opinion about it.
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True, but you'd have to argue you're born that way to make it relevant here. I know it happens but not as frequently as would be convenient to the argument. And honestly the only difference between being born sociopathic and being born homosexual is that sociopaths actively hurt people, which is unacceptable. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.
Really? So then AIDS is just a myth?
