The code monkeys are invading!
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As I understood the article, the problem isn’t that professional developers were not always so, but rather that developers claiming to be professional, or working as such, have not reached that standard yet.
Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
As I understood the article, the problem isn’t that professional developers were not always so, but rather that developers claiming to be professional, or working as such, have not reached that standard yet.
Ah, well, there's a couple thoughts about that. I do recall in my 20's that many of my peers fit that bill--claiming to be professional--so I think that there are always a fairly large number of people in any field that never really reach "professional". The Internet has however made these people more globally visible. Second, I guess because it's a field that is so easy to get into (relatively speaking, I suppose) that the field is ripe for charlatans. These are the modern day fortune teller equivalent. But what's worse, again because of the Internet, are the charlatans clothed in professionalism, like Kent Beck and crew that have inflicted Extreme Programming, SCRUM, and all that crap on us. Granted, there is some value to their techniques, but they are little more than professional quacks, IMO. We've had our invasion of methodology monkeys, it seems only reasonable that it will be followed by code monkeys. Eventually (and probably fairly soon) there will be more methodology monkeys to cope with the code monkeys. Marc
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No, just lazy newbies that won't try to figure things out for themselves. :) I blame The Google. It's made people (me included) lazy. I used to spend days or weeks poking and prodding an API to get it to do what I wanted. Now I just google it, read for about 5 seconds, cut and paste and tweak, without really trying to understand. I have a feeling a lot of other people are doing the same. Are we becoming a nation of snippet tweakers? Arggggg, need to get back to C++, at least it made me disciplined.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Steve Echols wrote:
I blame The Google.
I blame it on professional quackery like Extreme Programming, SCRUM, etc., that gives newbies the warm fuzzy feeling that they can whip out professional apps if they simply write unit tests, apply a few simple design patterns, and constantly refactor. Oh yes, and occasionally talk to the customer. Marc
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Aside from the problem of developers who don't know what they are doing, there is an enormous problem of elitism and snobbery amongst geek types. Almost by definition, a geek is someone who is very insecure on the inside. This naturally explains why it is part of geek culture to prove that you are better than the next guy. A hacker is not truly happy unless he can point to someone less knowledgeable and call him a "script kiddy." Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees. There is nothing new about one geek putting down other geeks in order to make himself feel better.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
A hacker is not truly happy unless he can point to someone less knowledgeable and call him a "script kiddy." Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I thin any company should have a mix of both, the advantage of having someone with a more methodical approach working with or against someone who has never been in the box, the solutions provided are varied and interesting. Code Monkeys? Script kiddies? surely these are the gurus of the future, I think the most important factors in being a good programmer have nothing to do with actually writing code, persisitence, consitution, insolence, curiousity, self reflection, passion, creativity. Most of these assets will never be taught by a university. Thinking patterns are just as important as book learned knowledge, it's why the CIA trains musicians as codebreaker. Obviously anyone who turns to labeling someone is simply demonstrating his / her own insecurity. It's counter productive, how many people are put off from really devoting themselves because some wank has gone off and said, you could never do that, you are script kiddie, code monkey, or some other label. I think it's important to tell newbies (there is nothing wrong with being newbie right?) do it for yourself, do it the best your can, listen to constructive criticism and ignore the wankers. I do not care HOW valuable or Irreplaceable you think you are, I would much rather delete all your code than hear you dishearten anyone else. My greatest respect has always been to those who do very good, do not gloat when actually they should and always can see themselves in the newbie.
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Totally agree, except the UI's tend to suffer, at least the one's I've experienced are very VBish with multi-colored buttons. Combine someone with application knowledge and a decent UI programmer and you usually get a solid product.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
I'd love to be a 'professional' programmer - I don't have time though, I do spend 80% of my time writing programs, I work in a specialised field where programming is a neccessity but its not 'the job'. So am I a programmer? Thats what I describe myself as because thats what I do most of, but I'm not in the sense that a lot of CP programmers are. I don't see the point of putting someone down because he doesn't know what .NET is or what something else is - its like grouping together professional tradesmen and then laughing at the plumbers because they don't know how to lay a course of bricks or put up shelves. Of course you will always get the odd plumber who will try to lay a course of bricks and pass it off as a good job, there are chancers in every trade but they get away with it because they bull***t the managers doing the hiring into believing they are good enough - thats a problem with the hiring procedure not the guy being hired.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Perhaps he is indirectly suggesting that online forums should be shut down! I mean if there weren't people helping out these hobbyist programmers who can't speak legible English, they wouldn't be able to claim to be professional developers, could they? :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
"We've got to protect our phoney-baloney jobs, gentlemen! We must do something about this immediately; immediately; immediately! (Crowd: Harumph, harumph, harumph!) (Pointing) Hey, I didn't get a harumph outa that guy!" -- Mel Brooks, Blazing Saddles
David Veeneman www.veeneman.com
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Aside from the problem of developers who don't know what they are doing, there is an enormous problem of elitism and snobbery amongst geek types. Almost by definition, a geek is someone who is very insecure on the inside. This naturally explains why it is part of geek culture to prove that you are better than the next guy. A hacker is not truly happy unless he can point to someone less knowledgeable and call him a "script kiddy." Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees. There is nothing new about one geek putting down other geeks in order to make himself feel better.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I disagree with this. I started out with a little schooling, then learned a lot through self-teaching and expereince, then I went back to school again. I've seen it from both sides. Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
only two letters away from being an asset
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
If a newbie has a proven record of his coding ability, I'll hire him. Unfortunately, university degrees in software engineering, and the like, are often not worth the paper they're printed on. I had a blazing row (in a restaurant) with a university course constructor, not too long ago, because she really could not see the simple failing in her beautifully planned BSc software engineering course -- that it at no time required any of the students to write any code. The course did, of course, include a term's training on how to fill out job application foms and prepare for interviews. And another on how to write letters. And another on how to write reports. And another on how to write project proposals. Etc. So Hell, yeah. If a guy comes to me and demonstrates that he can write the code I need him to write, I'll hire him. I don't give a sh1t if he knows how to write in English; for that, I'll get a technical writer.
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There is a difference between a hobbyst programmer and someone who doesnt' have a clue about what they are doing passing themselves off as a professional developer.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
You mean like the ones with user names like The Specialist, Code Guru, or CSharper, who ask what the difference is between public and private access modifiers.
only two letters away from being an asset
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Not that it is necessarily newbies taking over the world. I have seen a trend on the forums here toward questions from people who would be better off reading a book and maybe actually taking, or paying attention to, a class or two, before trying to write applications.
only two letters away from being an asset
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Here is an interesting anecdote for you guys. I was working for a big company in it's IT department. Some HR manager needed a DB to keep track of employees (your typical employee DB, Name, Address, Social security number etc.). A simple task for any developer. Well the manager was convinced by his "secretary" (who just learned C# and .Net 1.1 at the time) to let her write the application. The poor girl had no notion of security and authentication so the application was full access for everyone to see, update, delete. Actually, no one knew about this (only the manager was using it) untill auditors of NYE following the Sarbanes-Oxley act audited the company and checked on how sensitive data were stored.... now you imagine the rest.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
The point was that people claiming to be professional developers and using the forums to solve their problems without first having put forth effort of their own.
I tend to think the real point is that consumers are getting more and more greedy about price and they care less and less about quality. So decent companies that used to hire American laborers coming from skilled and well known institutions now have to hire off-shore workers to meet the fickle demand of the American consumer. This of course dilutes the quality of the product and makes the fickle consumer my finicky about price. The 'dog eating it's tail' problem is that more off-shoring comes from Americans being less concerned about quality and more concerned about price. It's a vicious cycle that is causing massive decay in American skilled laborers and the sub-societies they belong to. (This is not a statement against the code quality of foreign laborers. There are many seriously talented Indian and Chinese skilled laborers. The point is that so much work is going off-shore that the off-shore labor pools are emptying too quickly and they need to fill them from somewhere to meet the demand. I know many skilled Indian and Chinese developers and I'm not questioning their skill nor am I trying to dilute it.) If Americans would be more willing to spend less often and pay more for quality we'd be in much better shape. Instead Americans cast aside quality for quantity and they don't buy one cell phone that should last for 2+ years easily instead they buy a $39.99 flip-phone that might last 6 months before the next phone trinket comes along that they want more so they ditch the $39.99 phone they just got, sign a 2 year contract and get the next $39.99 phone. Americans have become hungry for 'stuff' but not quality stuff it's about having more and paying less for it but more is no longer synonymous with quality it now equates to quantity. America has a serious problem and you can see it in the posts you describe. The demand that used to feed American families is now 1000's of miles away and off-shore laborers are struggling to keep up with volume of work 'we' used to do. They are coming to American forums and other American online resources to tap into American talent and try and put a false shine of quality on a low quality product or byte of code. Instead of blogging to the world about diluted code and questions developers should be writing senators, congressman and other electe
Ultimately it sounds like you are saying that America is turning in to a short-sighted, disposable society. In a sense, it is a classic "chicken and egg" problem. Is the work being outsourced because the quality of work here is decreasing or is the quality of work here decreasing because more and more work is being outsourced. In either case, it is a cycle, but like any cycle it is possible to break it.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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code-frog wrote:
I tend to think the real point is that consumers are getting more and more greedy about price and they care less and less about quality. So decent companies that used to hire American laborers coming from skilled and well known institutions now have to hire off-shore workers to meet the fickle demand of the American consumer. This of course dilutes the quality of the product and makes the fickle consumer my finicky about price.
I think the American corporation is as much the source of this problem as the consumer themselves. Take your cell phone example - a perfect area of planned obsolescence for the cell phone manufacturers. They don't BUILD your phones to last 2 years - if it does, that's because you take really, REALLY good care of it. They WANT it to fall apart after 6 months so that they can sell you another one, and if you're really lucky, you get to sign another 2 year contract so that your phone is actually affordable. Oh, but remember, you're going to get a phone that is severely disabled compared to the Asian or European model. No, Americans don't want those features, but they do want to pay a 30% premium on the price of the phone. Much of what we see and so much of the "finnicky-ness" of the American Consumer is purely an invention of companies attempting to guarantee their income stream.
code-frog wrote:
If Americans would be more willing to spend less often
You'd have companies shrieking and screaming about the imminent end of freedom and democracy as we know it. Seriously, you'd think that the idea of actually NOT BUYING the latest, greatest product was some sort of sin, talking to most of the "Joneses", and to your average consumer. "You're NOT going to buy the latest ___________? What's wrong with you?" Listen, really listen, to the next 10 commercials you see or hear. Listen to what they tell you. They don't tell you how wonderful their product is - they tell you how much you NEED it. These advertisements are created by people who spend whole careers studying brainwashing. They know the best way to make you buy something you really, really don't want to buy. And it works, better than most people suspect. The age of the honest buck is long past. Talking about honest software development is almost a contradiction in terms. But I digress into soapbox material. The problem is, the more "
Patrick Sears wrote:
a perfect area of planned obsolescence
This has been the case with most American made products for a long, long time. Look at the American auto manufacturers. That is one of the primary reasons the foreign makers (like Toyota and Honda) were able to get such a major foothold in the industry here. Most commercials not only tell you why you need the product, but make you believe that their product is better than everything else. There is a lot of money tied up in the advertising of products, and yes, the public by and large, does fall for it. The problem is that the advertising agencies rely on psychological factors to make you think and/or feel a certain way. Most of this is so subtle that you never realize it...even those that do can't always escape it.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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code-frog wrote:
If Americans would be more willing to [...] pay more for quality we'd be in much better shape.
Bingo. You have to hunt to find good milk, fruit, cheese, or meat. Good luck getting your car repaired by someone who actually knows how the thing works. Forget taking care of your possessions, just buy new ones. It comes down to attitude, and sure, there's plenty of blame to share with the ad-men, but snake-oil salesmen are nothing new - we've just made them our kings...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Shog9 wrote:
You have to hunt to find good milk, fruit, cheese, or meat. Good luck getting your car repaired by someone who actually knows how the thing works. Forget taking care of your possessions, just buy new ones. It comes down to attitude, and sure, there's plenty of blame to share with the ad-men, but snake-oil salesmen are nothing new - we've just made them our kings...
and we've become the court jesters because of it.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Richie308 wrote:
there is an enormous problem of elitism and snobbery amongst geek types.
In all honesty it's about a quarter or less a problem than it was in the '80s and early '90s. Back in those days you could be the biggest asshole in the world, but if you ran a network or wrote software you were untouchable. These days I'm pretty sure most software shops would not think twice to throw an uncivilized nerdy asshole out the door in a heartbeat.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Very true. The problem has gotten better, but there are still developers out there like that and still companies that will cater to them. I used to work at one, and there is still a developer there that has caused more problems in the product and that no one wants to work with...but he's still there.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
The point was that people claiming to be professional developers and using the forums to solve their problems without first having put forth effort of their own.
I tend to think the real point is that consumers are getting more and more greedy about price and they care less and less about quality. So decent companies that used to hire American laborers coming from skilled and well known institutions now have to hire off-shore workers to meet the fickle demand of the American consumer. This of course dilutes the quality of the product and makes the fickle consumer my finicky about price. The 'dog eating it's tail' problem is that more off-shoring comes from Americans being less concerned about quality and more concerned about price. It's a vicious cycle that is causing massive decay in American skilled laborers and the sub-societies they belong to. (This is not a statement against the code quality of foreign laborers. There are many seriously talented Indian and Chinese skilled laborers. The point is that so much work is going off-shore that the off-shore labor pools are emptying too quickly and they need to fill them from somewhere to meet the demand. I know many skilled Indian and Chinese developers and I'm not questioning their skill nor am I trying to dilute it.) If Americans would be more willing to spend less often and pay more for quality we'd be in much better shape. Instead Americans cast aside quality for quantity and they don't buy one cell phone that should last for 2+ years easily instead they buy a $39.99 flip-phone that might last 6 months before the next phone trinket comes along that they want more so they ditch the $39.99 phone they just got, sign a 2 year contract and get the next $39.99 phone. Americans have become hungry for 'stuff' but not quality stuff it's about having more and paying less for it but more is no longer synonymous with quality it now equates to quantity. America has a serious problem and you can see it in the posts you describe. The demand that used to feed American families is now 1000's of miles away and off-shore laborers are struggling to keep up with volume of work 'we' used to do. They are coming to American forums and other American online resources to tap into American talent and try and put a false shine of quality on a low quality product or byte of code. Instead of blogging to the world about diluted code and questions developers should be writing senators, congressman and other electe
Thank you for a very inciteful contribution. You have obviously given this considerable thought, we share the same perspective and conclusion. Thank you for articulating so well.
Tom Hamilton Sacramento, CA
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Richie308 wrote:
A hacker is not truly happy unless he can point to someone less knowledgeable and call him a "script kiddy." Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I thin any company should have a mix of both, the advantage of having someone with a more methodical approach working with or against someone who has never been in the box, the solutions provided are varied and interesting. Code Monkeys? Script kiddies? surely these are the gurus of the future, I think the most important factors in being a good programmer have nothing to do with actually writing code, persisitence, consitution, insolence, curiousity, self reflection, passion, creativity. Most of these assets will never be taught by a university. Thinking patterns are just as important as book learned knowledge, it's why the CIA trains musicians as codebreaker. Obviously anyone who turns to labeling someone is simply demonstrating his / her own insecurity. It's counter productive, how many people are put off from really devoting themselves because some wank has gone off and said, you could never do that, you are script kiddie, code monkey, or some other label. I think it's important to tell newbies (there is nothing wrong with being newbie right?) do it for yourself, do it the best your can, listen to constructive criticism and ignore the wankers. I do not care HOW valuable or Irreplaceable you think you are, I would much rather delete all your code than hear you dishearten anyone else. My greatest respect has always been to those who do very good, do not gloat when actually they should and always can see themselves in the newbie.
stickershock wrote:
I think the most important factors in being a good programmer have nothing to do with actually writing code, persisitence, consitution, insolence, curiousity, self reflection, passion, creativity.
Definately. You are also right that most of these won't be taught by a university. They are factors that are learned with experience.
stickershock wrote:
I think it's important to tell newbies (there is nothing wrong with being newbie right?) do it for yourself, do it the best your can, listen to constructive criticism and ignore the wankers.
Yes, we were all newbies once. As you said, it's important for the newbie to learn how to do it for themselves...but (as others have also said) a lot of these newbies would be better off picking up a book and learning the basic concepts of programming before asking questions. There is a difference between being a newbie and and not knowing the basic concepts (or taking the time to learn those concepts).
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Richie308 wrote:
Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I disagree with this. I started out with a little schooling, then learned a lot through self-teaching and expereince, then I went back to school again. I've seen it from both sides. Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
I would say that the elitist camp runs on both sides. I have seen it from the highly (and sometimes over) paid developers who think they are better than everyone else because they have a Master's or Ph.D. (or even a B.S.) degree and I have seen it from the "community college graduate" (or the technical school (Devry type schools) grad) who thinks because they earned a "specialized technical degree" they are better than everyone else. In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Thank you for a very inciteful contribution. You have obviously given this considerable thought, we share the same perspective and conclusion. Thank you for articulating so well.
Tom Hamilton Sacramento, CA
Thank you. [I wanted to say more, but everything ended up sounding conceited. :-O]
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Trouble is CP is helping them, like Scott said just look at questions being posed in CP and people are answering them, yes I'll be happy to answer a question, but when the question begins "How to you assign an array in c#", well that deserves ridicule. One good thing is the technologies are sweeping that fast the code gimp don't have a chance to learn anything.
P Think of the environment; please don't print this message unless you really need to.
norm .net wrote:
I'll be happy to answer a question, but when the question begins "How to you assign an array in c#", well that deserves ridicule.
That's exactly what I was seeing. I don't mind answering questions either, but there are some that just shouldn't have even been asked.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
