ProveIt!
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost.
I agree. I told the guy I had a) 27 years experience as a programmer, b) taught myself pascal, C++, and pretty much everything else I've needed to know to do the job, and c) had little experience with the .Net framework and almost none for MSSQL of any vintage. The tests I took just proved what I said. I got all the "programming" questions for C# right (only 4 or 5 actual programming questions at the beginning of the test), but had to guess at a lot of the .Net framework stuff. The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
:wtf: If this guy was a sample of the engineering staff, run, do not walk, and find something else.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Yep, you don't need to know all the answers, you just need to know where to find them!!
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
That is exactly what I have always said.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
:wtf: If this guy was a sample of the engineering staff, run, do not walk, and find something else.
Software Zen:
delete this;Well, it's a recruiting firm, and they're paid by their clients to weed out the obviously unskilled. However, I happen to believe that this style of recruitment is detrimental to people like me who have a demonstrated history adapting to job requirements. All these tests prove is what I had already told the recruiter - I don't have much .Net experience, and I'm not even close to being proficient in the various flavors of databases. However, they do NOT show that I don't have any problem learning relatively quickly. Once other thing about recruiters that I absolutely despise - if you mention that you have "a little experince" with a given technology, they try to shoe-horn you into a position that requires much more knowledge than you admitted to having. This happens mostly with visual basic. I mentioned that I have "a little experience" with vb6 and vbscript, and all of a sudden, I'm being presented as a freakin' expert. I told the most recent recruiter that I would NOT accept a job writing VB in any flavor, and his respnse was "But you have experience in it!", to which I responded, "Why do you think I don't want anything to do with it?" I'm not exactly hopeful that this guy will find a good match for me. I want to move into C#/.Net (only because there are so few C++ jobs available here), but he's thinking I'd be a good fit in a position that requires Java experience. WTF is wrong with these people?!
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost.
I agree. I told the guy I had a) 27 years experience as a programmer, b) taught myself pascal, C++, and pretty much everything else I've needed to know to do the job, and c) had little experience with the .Net framework and almost none for MSSQL of any vintage. The tests I took just proved what I said. I got all the "programming" questions for C# right (only 4 or 5 actual programming questions at the beginning of the test), but had to guess at a lot of the .Net framework stuff. The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice
What a complete dick head. I've also been going through this the last couple of weeks and some of the tests I've been asked to take are absolutely ludicrous. I now refuse to take tests: they only prove that you can't know everything. Better they should ask you the why and how you do things, not the mechanics. It's a bit like asking a Formula 1 driver how to grease the wheel bearings. He won't know but I bet he can find out.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice
What a complete dick head. I've also been going through this the last couple of weeks and some of the tests I've been asked to take are absolutely ludicrous. I now refuse to take tests: they only prove that you can't know everything. Better they should ask you the why and how you do things, not the mechanics. It's a bit like asking a Formula 1 driver how to grease the wheel bearings. He won't know but I bet he can find out.
The really funny part is for all 39 questions on the SQL test, I just guessed. If I got 14 right just by guessing, it seems to me that given real-world exposure to the technology would increase my knowledge of it 10 fold. Besides all of that, the two jobs I've had that needed database work done had DBAs on staff to do the intricate stuff (connection strings, creating tables, triggers, and such), and the C++ coders wrote stored procs (or in-code SQL) to handle specific requirements of the C++ code they were writing. IMHO, that's the way it should be.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost.
I agree. I told the guy I had a) 27 years experience as a programmer, b) taught myself pascal, C++, and pretty much everything else I've needed to know to do the job, and c) had little experience with the .Net framework and almost none for MSSQL of any vintage. The tests I took just proved what I said. I got all the "programming" questions for C# right (only 4 or 5 actual programming questions at the beginning of the test), but had to guess at a lot of the .Net framework stuff. The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
:wtf: That's over half of what we do in this job, or any other IT-related field! :omg: That place is just another body shop. RUN AWAY!! RUN FAR AWAY!! I'm in the same boat you are. Over 21 years, self taught everything, a 4 page resume (if I wanted to put everything on it) for the last 10 years, and it doesn't mean a damn thing unless you can "pass" the test that you're not qualified to pass. I had an interview at Computer Consultants of America for a LAN support job with Active Directory, NetWare, plenty of scripting and a bit of C# thrown in. I told the person my router experience was quite limited because that's area that's highly protected in most environments and you don't get to "play" around with them to learn it. Guess what kind of test I got put through!
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
Yep, you don't need to know all the answers, you just need to know where to find them!!
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
Yep - and that's why I'm crap at interviews. My memory is very poor. Doesn't cut any ice when I say: "but I would know where to find the answer." :((
Kevin
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost.
I agree. I told the guy I had a) 27 years experience as a programmer, b) taught myself pascal, C++, and pretty much everything else I've needed to know to do the job, and c) had little experience with the .Net framework and almost none for MSSQL of any vintage. The tests I took just proved what I said. I got all the "programming" questions for C# right (only 4 or 5 actual programming questions at the beginning of the test), but had to guess at a lot of the .Net framework stuff. The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
!!! :omg: Arseholes.
Kevin
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That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost. If someone subjected me to a test like that in a job interview, my price would go up $20K/yr.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick
They don't have time to do this for all the applications they get. The test is a first initial screen, nothing more. They need to make sure it's worth taking the time to talk to you and your referees.
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While in the process of looking for other gainful employment, I have been subjected to two skills tests on the ProveIt website (online tests for IT professionals). The first one was for C# and .Net with some applicable database and deployment questions. The only .Net experience I have is adding a few pages to an existing intranet site, and that someone else did the most of the initial database work, and yet another person was responsible for deployment issues. I answered 26 out of 39 questions correctly, with the national average being 27 answered correctly. The 2nd test was for MSSQL 2005. I've had even less exposure to this, but I've seen a lot of Oracle SQL, so some of the stuff was somewhat familiar. I answered 14 out of 39 correctly which was just a hair under the national average again (don't remember what that was). On this test, I noted that the first question provided no correct answers because they spelled the name of the column wrong in all four answers (but of course, "None of the above" wasn't one of the answers available to me). My conclusion is that 0) A lot of people that say they know this stuff are full of shit 1) Not many people are as knowledgeable as they should be 2) Like me, almost everyone sucks at tests and would prefer a good set of reference material rather than committing crap like this to memory.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Interview is a skill in itself! Looking good for a job, with job hunter, has little to do with your skills, but a lot to do with your presentation and speaking skills. Don't worry about failed interview with head hunters, just take it as interview training! I have heard there heaps of demand for experienced IT people in America (at least it is the case in Australia), so something is bound to happen. Also one other thing I have noticed is that recuitement consultant seems to have little understanding many good developer are good at learning stuff (indeed, it's a requirement!!!), so one thing which helped me to go into .NET I believe (before I was labbeled as a Java guy) was that I pushed a few (small) .NET project at (my previous) work (thanks to my home experience) and I made them big on my resume. Suddenly I had "Commercial Experience".
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Well, it's a recruiting firm, and they're paid by their clients to weed out the obviously unskilled. However, I happen to believe that this style of recruitment is detrimental to people like me who have a demonstrated history adapting to job requirements. All these tests prove is what I had already told the recruiter - I don't have much .Net experience, and I'm not even close to being proficient in the various flavors of databases. However, they do NOT show that I don't have any problem learning relatively quickly. Once other thing about recruiters that I absolutely despise - if you mention that you have "a little experince" with a given technology, they try to shoe-horn you into a position that requires much more knowledge than you admitted to having. This happens mostly with visual basic. I mentioned that I have "a little experience" with vb6 and vbscript, and all of a sudden, I'm being presented as a freakin' expert. I told the most recent recruiter that I would NOT accept a job writing VB in any flavor, and his respnse was "But you have experience in it!", to which I responded, "Why do you think I don't want anything to do with it?" I'm not exactly hopeful that this guy will find a good match for me. I want to move into C#/.Net (only because there are so few C++ jobs available here), but he's thinking I'd be a good fit in a position that requires Java experience. WTF is wrong with these people?!
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
it's a recruiting firm
That kind of explains it then.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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Well, it's a recruiting firm, and they're paid by their clients to weed out the obviously unskilled. However, I happen to believe that this style of recruitment is detrimental to people like me who have a demonstrated history adapting to job requirements. All these tests prove is what I had already told the recruiter - I don't have much .Net experience, and I'm not even close to being proficient in the various flavors of databases. However, they do NOT show that I don't have any problem learning relatively quickly. Once other thing about recruiters that I absolutely despise - if you mention that you have "a little experince" with a given technology, they try to shoe-horn you into a position that requires much more knowledge than you admitted to having. This happens mostly with visual basic. I mentioned that I have "a little experience" with vb6 and vbscript, and all of a sudden, I'm being presented as a freakin' expert. I told the most recent recruiter that I would NOT accept a job writing VB in any flavor, and his respnse was "But you have experience in it!", to which I responded, "Why do you think I don't want anything to do with it?" I'm not exactly hopeful that this guy will find a good match for me. I want to move into C#/.Net (only because there are so few C++ jobs available here), but he's thinking I'd be a good fit in a position that requires Java experience. WTF is wrong with these people?!
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
but he's thinking I'd be a good fit in a position that requires Java experience. WTF is wrong with these people?!
In all probability he's currently got a contract looking for Java developers so he's trying to fill it. He probably doesn't get paid in full until he does. That sort of structure is going to easily lead to what you're experiencing. A coworker of mine is going through exactly the same thing. Most of these people are paid on commission.
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AMEN to all of that... I would add that once I actually get into some of these places I find the usual assortment of nincompoops, petty dilettante's and wannabe axe-murderers. Simply amazing. So it would seem to me that these 'tools' for screening applicatants are not very effective.
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While in the process of looking for other gainful employment, I have been subjected to two skills tests on the ProveIt website (online tests for IT professionals). The first one was for C# and .Net with some applicable database and deployment questions. The only .Net experience I have is adding a few pages to an existing intranet site, and that someone else did the most of the initial database work, and yet another person was responsible for deployment issues. I answered 26 out of 39 questions correctly, with the national average being 27 answered correctly. The 2nd test was for MSSQL 2005. I've had even less exposure to this, but I've seen a lot of Oracle SQL, so some of the stuff was somewhat familiar. I answered 14 out of 39 correctly which was just a hair under the national average again (don't remember what that was). On this test, I noted that the first question provided no correct answers because they spelled the name of the column wrong in all four answers (but of course, "None of the above" wasn't one of the answers available to me). My conclusion is that 0) A lot of people that say they know this stuff are full of shit 1) Not many people are as knowledgeable as they should be 2) Like me, almost everyone sucks at tests and would prefer a good set of reference material rather than committing crap like this to memory.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
While in the process of looking for other gainful employment, I have been subjected to two skills tests on the ProveIt website (online tests for IT professionals). The first one was for C# and .Net with some applicable database and deployment questions. The only .Net experience I have is adding a few pages to an existing intranet site, and that someone else did the most of the initial database work, and yet another person was responsible for deployment issues. I answered 26 out of 39 questions correctly, with the national average being 27 answered correctly. The 2nd test was for MSSQL 2005. I've had even less exposure to this, but I've seen a lot of Oracle SQL, so some of the stuff was somewhat familiar. I answered 14 out of 39 correctly which was just a hair under the national average again (don't remember what that was). On this test, I noted that the first question provided no correct answers because they spelled the name of the column wrong in all four answers (but of course, "None of the above" wasn't one of the answers available to me). My conclusion is that 0) A lot of people that say they know this stuff are full of shit 1) Not many people are as knowledgeable as they should be 2) Like me, almost everyone sucks at tests and would prefer a good set of reference material rather than committing crap like this to memory.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001- People that are skilled and have a job probably don't do these tests.
Wout
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rollei35guy wrote:
wannabe axe-murderers
I now have this image of someone standing over their victim, reading instructions on how to hold the axe :doh:
Visit http://www.readytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
I now have this image of someone standing over their victim, reading instructions on how to hold the axe
They've already been tested on that or they wouldn't have gotten the job. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
- People that are skilled and have a job probably don't do these tests.
Wout
wout de zeeuw wrote:
- People that are skilled and have a job probably don't do these tests.
:doh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
The really funny part is for all 39 questions on the SQL test, I just guessed. If I got 14 right just by guessing, it seems to me that given real-world exposure to the technology would increase my knowledge of it 10 fold. Besides all of that, the two jobs I've had that needed database work done had DBAs on staff to do the intricate stuff (connection strings, creating tables, triggers, and such), and the C++ coders wrote stored procs (or in-code SQL) to handle specific requirements of the C++ code they were writing. IMHO, that's the way it should be.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Besides all of that, the two jobs I've had that needed database work done had DBAs on staff to do the intricate stuff (connection strings, creating tables, triggers, and such), and the C++ coders wrote stored procs (or in-code SQL) to handle specific requirements of the C++ code they were writing. IMHO, that's the way it should be.
Exactly! I started a new contract last Monday. The interview was purely around why and how I undertake tasks and solve problems. He didn't ask me a single 'technical' question. He was an ex-Microfty. Don't know if that had anything to do with his interview technique but I certainly felt I was allowed to sell myself. Bottom line, if you don't have a clue it'll come out fast enough. Good luck finding a gig.
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
That's a load of crap. Look at my resume, check my references to validate it, talk to me to ensure I'm not a complete dick, and then make me an offer or tell to me to get lost.
I agree. I told the guy I had a) 27 years experience as a programmer, b) taught myself pascal, C++, and pretty much everything else I've needed to know to do the job, and c) had little experience with the .Net framework and almost none for MSSQL of any vintage. The tests I took just proved what I said. I got all the "programming" questions for C# right (only 4 or 5 actual programming questions at the beginning of the test), but had to guess at a lot of the .Net framework stuff. The guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice (which is absurd when you're a programmer).
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
he guy that I interviewed with gave me the impression that researching answers was not an acceptable practice
Then he obviously has no idea about being a programmer, bottom line programmers do a ton of research
"Well yes, it is an Integer, but it's a metrosexual Integer. For all we know, under all that hair gel it could be a Boolean." Tom Welch
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The really funny part is for all 39 questions on the SQL test, I just guessed. If I got 14 right just by guessing, it seems to me that given real-world exposure to the technology would increase my knowledge of it 10 fold. Besides all of that, the two jobs I've had that needed database work done had DBAs on staff to do the intricate stuff (connection strings, creating tables, triggers, and such), and the C++ coders wrote stored procs (or in-code SQL) to handle specific requirements of the C++ code they were writing. IMHO, that's the way it should be.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Besides all of that, the two jobs I've had that needed database work done had DBAs on staff to do the intricate stuff (connection strings, creating tables, triggers, and such)
Wow, where I work us developers are required to do all that, we write the scripts for the triggers, tables, etc and when the monthly release is promoted the scripts are ran
"Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." Bill Gates