Offshore rates...
-
peanuts and monkeys come to mind. :-) However, I have worked with coders both from India and many other countries and they were all (with the odd exception) very nice, capable people just trying to earn a living like you and me. The attraction for business to use them is that low rate which can be paid because they need bugger all to live on. In any case the rates in India are starting to rise hence many corps are now turning their attention to eastern europe and the far east as sources of cheap coders. Further, if the process is not properly managed, you end up hiring local coders to fix up the job because you didn't understand how to run coders in disparate, geographically diverse locations. Just an observation borne of experience.
I agree that being Indian doesn't make someone a bad coder, I was more commenting on the state of the industry over there, based on what I know from people who manage teams there, etc.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
-
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour
My sister works for Infosys and she probably makes around $5/hour - she's only been there about an year now. But if she went for some other job - like say a school teacher or some government department, she'd probably be making less than half that. Actually, if she was wiling to relocate outside Trivandrum, she could easily make twice or thrice what she makes now, but mom and dad want her to stay in Trivandrum, and she likes the pampering I guess. :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
peanuts and monkeys come to mind. :-) However, I have worked with coders both from India and many other countries and they were all (with the odd exception) very nice, capable people just trying to earn a living like you and me. The attraction for business to use them is that low rate which can be paid because they need bugger all to live on. In any case the rates in India are starting to rise hence many corps are now turning their attention to eastern europe and the far east as sources of cheap coders. Further, if the process is not properly managed, you end up hiring local coders to fix up the job because you didn't understand how to run coders in disparate, geographically diverse locations. Just an observation borne of experience.
digital man wrote:
I have worked with coders both from India and many other countries and they were all (with the odd exception) very nice, capable people just trying to earn a living like you and me.
You are spot on when it comes to this. People in the west marvel at the low the hourly rate is but don't realize that it is 10 times more than that talented person can make farming rice. I know talented people -- with university degrees -- who are working for much less than people working at MickieDs in the west (averaging 6 days a week and sometimes seven), and liking it because they can support their (extended) families and don't have to undress, or otherwise degrade themselves, to do it! I am happy that you have not lost track of this. :-D
digital man wrote:
In any case the rates in India are starting to rise hence many corps are now turning their attention to eastern europe and the far east as sources of cheap coders.
It is a sad state of affairs that as soon as you try to get a more equitable arrangement the opportunities move to a place where people can be exploited for less money. :sigh: There is no commitment to the people that make a business function any more. X|
digital man wrote:
if the process is not properly managed, you end up hiring local coders to fix up the job because you didn't understand how to run coders in disparate, geographically diverse locations
Any process has to be properly managed. When you cross cultures you have to expect that it will be more difficult to manage. If you don't plan for it you are not a good manager. :doh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour
My sister works for Infosys and she probably makes around $5/hour - she's only been there about an year now. But if she went for some other job - like say a school teacher or some government department, she'd probably be making less than half that. Actually, if she was wiling to relocate outside Trivandrum, she could easily make twice or thrice what she makes now, but mom and dad want her to stay in Trivandrum, and she likes the pampering I guess. :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
My sister works for Infosys and she probably makes around $5/hour - she's only been there about an year now. But if she went for some other job - like say a school teacher or some government department, she'd probably be making less than half that.
Supply and demand.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
if she was wiling to relocate outside Trivandrum
Would it be socially acceptable, in your culture, for a young woman to go off on her own?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
mom and dad want her to stay in Trivandrum
No need to say more.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
she likes the pampering I guess
Pampering is nice but I suspect she does not want to disobey your parents.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007I think we should start calling it "ouchsourcing". ;P Marc
-
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point :doh:
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
-
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My sister works for Infosys and she probably makes around $5/hour - she's only been there about an year now. But if she went for some other job - like say a school teacher or some government department, she'd probably be making less than half that.
Supply and demand.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
if she was wiling to relocate outside Trivandrum
Would it be socially acceptable, in your culture, for a young woman to go off on her own?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
mom and dad want her to stay in Trivandrum
No need to say more.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
she likes the pampering I guess
Pampering is nice but I suspect she does not want to disobey your parents.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Would it be socially acceptable, in your culture, for a young woman to go off on her own?
Yes, totally. Nearly all her girl friends work in Bangalore or Madras.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Pampering is nice but I suspect she does not want to disobey your parents.
No, it's not that. She did work in Bangalore for a short while. But in India, if you leave your state, language is a barrier. You are not talking about Saudi Arabia here :-) It's south India, and that too Kerala (my state) - probably India's most liberal region.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
digital man wrote:
I have worked with coders both from India and many other countries and they were all (with the odd exception) very nice, capable people just trying to earn a living like you and me.
You are spot on when it comes to this. People in the west marvel at the low the hourly rate is but don't realize that it is 10 times more than that talented person can make farming rice. I know talented people -- with university degrees -- who are working for much less than people working at MickieDs in the west (averaging 6 days a week and sometimes seven), and liking it because they can support their (extended) families and don't have to undress, or otherwise degrade themselves, to do it! I am happy that you have not lost track of this. :-D
digital man wrote:
In any case the rates in India are starting to rise hence many corps are now turning their attention to eastern europe and the far east as sources of cheap coders.
It is a sad state of affairs that as soon as you try to get a more equitable arrangement the opportunities move to a place where people can be exploited for less money. :sigh: There is no commitment to the people that make a business function any more. X|
digital man wrote:
if the process is not properly managed, you end up hiring local coders to fix up the job because you didn't understand how to run coders in disparate, geographically diverse locations
Any process has to be properly managed. When you cross cultures you have to expect that it will be more difficult to manage. If you don't plan for it you are not a good manager. :doh:
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Any process has to be properly managed. When you cross cultures you have to expect that it will be more difficult to manage. If you don't plan for it you are not a good manager
I have seen both sides of this as I have run a global project that worked fine and I've taken over a project that was dying because the managers managed the process not the people. Idiots lost sight of the fact that without the people there is no process.
-
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point :doh:
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
-
JimmyRopes wrote:
Would it be socially acceptable, in your culture, for a young woman to go off on her own?
Yes, totally. Nearly all her girl friends work in Bangalore or Madras.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Pampering is nice but I suspect she does not want to disobey your parents.
No, it's not that. She did work in Bangalore for a short while. But in India, if you leave your state, language is a barrier. You are not talking about Saudi Arabia here :-) It's south India, and that too Kerala (my state) - probably India's most liberal region.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
JimmyRopes wrote: Would it be socially acceptable, in your culture, for a young woman to go off on her own? Yes, totally. Nearly all her girl friends work in Bangalore or Madras.
Then she rally does like the pampering. ;) What's not to like? :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
Patrick Sears wrote:
They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost.
Projects fail all the time and people get their asses kicked for it, or worse, and saying that they did it really cheaply is hardly going to get them any credit. Offshore outsourcing is popular now because people think they can get work done to an acceptable level (whatever that may be), at a cheaper price. So, one of two things is going to happen: either they're wrong and they get burnt and have to try something else, or they're right in which case, WTH shouldn't they? All the people bleating now about the evils about offshore outsourcing and how it's un-<insert your country here>, were they similarly up in arms when manufacturing jobs and the like got shifted overseas? People get so hot under the collar, bitching about Indians and Philippinos and Chinese taking "our" jobs but the reality is that they are just normal people, trying to get ahead, same as us, taking job opportunities that pay far better than what they would be making otherwise. Nothing wrong with that. If you want someone to point the finger at, it should be at upper management (that'd be the white guys in suits) who think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers), and that this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
It's hardly unique to IT.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
-
Patrick Sears wrote:
They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost.
Projects fail all the time and people get their asses kicked for it, or worse, and saying that they did it really cheaply is hardly going to get them any credit. Offshore outsourcing is popular now because people think they can get work done to an acceptable level (whatever that may be), at a cheaper price. So, one of two things is going to happen: either they're wrong and they get burnt and have to try something else, or they're right in which case, WTH shouldn't they? All the people bleating now about the evils about offshore outsourcing and how it's un-<insert your country here>, were they similarly up in arms when manufacturing jobs and the like got shifted overseas? People get so hot under the collar, bitching about Indians and Philippinos and Chinese taking "our" jobs but the reality is that they are just normal people, trying to get ahead, same as us, taking job opportunities that pay far better than what they would be making otherwise. Nothing wrong with that. If you want someone to point the finger at, it should be at upper management (that'd be the white guys in suits) who think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers), and that this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
It's hardly unique to IT.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
that'd be the white guys in suits
Suits in general. I have seen locals be more vicious to their underlings than their western counterparts. :sigh:
Taka Muraoka wrote:
think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers)
No different than taking local (western) technically challenged and teaching them to read a script, except is is cheaper. Offshore doesn't have a lock on incompetents. Just talk to most US high school graduates. When they are not holding up their over sized pants from falling down they are spouting some trite saying that roughly translated means "I have sh!t for brains".
Taka Muraoka wrote:
this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice
At least the person on the other end of the conversation is trying to treat you as a human being and not just an object of contempt. Sorry for the rant but I see the byproduct of modern culture and it is defective in most ways. :((
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007I think those rates reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project :)
-
Taka Muraoka wrote:
that'd be the white guys in suits
Suits in general. I have seen locals be more vicious to their underlings than their western counterparts. :sigh:
Taka Muraoka wrote:
think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers)
No different than taking local (western) technically challenged and teaching them to read a script, except is is cheaper. Offshore doesn't have a lock on incompetents. Just talk to most US high school graduates. When they are not holding up their over sized pants from falling down they are spouting some trite saying that roughly translated means "I have sh!t for brains".
Taka Muraoka wrote:
this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice
At least the person on the other end of the conversation is trying to treat you as a human being and not just an object of contempt. Sorry for the rant but I see the byproduct of modern culture and it is defective in most ways. :((
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Suits in general. I have seen locals be more vicious to their underlings than their western counterparts.
True. My original comment was a bit opaque but I was implying there is a bit of racism underlying the backlash against offshoring. I don't think we'd be seeing quite the same reaction in the US if it were Aussies and Poms who were working for $20/hour. But looking inwards for the source of the problem is probably a bit too close to home for many people.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Offshore doesn't have a lock on incompetents. Just talk to most US high school graduates.
Yup. I'm sure few of us are surprised by what we read at The Daily WTF and certainly based on a lot of the people I've worked with, I don't think we're exactly in the best position to be pointing a finger at the Indians for crappy work :rolleyes: But not speaking English natively makes a difficult situation even harder.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
-
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
Patrick Sears wrote:
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
Very true. I've seen that in too many places.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
-
I think those rates reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project :)
martin_hughes wrote:
reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project
Hence I generally just give insights on how to maybe solve an issue. I don't hand people out code, unless they don't mind an invoice ;P
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
-
martin_hughes wrote:
reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project
Hence I generally just give insights on how to maybe solve an issue. I don't hand people out code, unless they don't mind an invoice ;P
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
Given the amount of (clearly Indian) people who ask questions, and then piss off, I'd say that's sound advice :)
-
Given the amount of (clearly Indian) people who ask questions, and then piss off, I'd say that's sound advice :)
martin_hughes wrote:
people who ask questions, and then piss off
Yeah. A quick thanks or a smiley would be nice. Some kind of acknowledgment :)
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
-
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Junior Developers -- $10/Hour
Wow! That's less than the UK Minimum wage (£5.35 / $10.70).
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... "I wouldn't say boo to a goose. I'm not a coward, I just realise that it would be largely pointless." Ready to Give up - Your help will be much appreciated. My website
-
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point :doh:
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Price is not the only selling point
To U.S. companies, yes, it is. Well, at least it's the biggest driving force. Quality has nothing to do with it. Short-term profits are what drives U.S. companies. Profits drive share price. Share price drives investors. Did you know that the color LCD display was invented in the U.S.? Not a single U.S. manufacturer would build them because there was no short term profits on it. Japanese makers jumped all over them and, eventually, made a mint. In the U.S., it's "satisfy the share holder, now, no matter the cost". If the shareholders aren't happy, they pull their money out...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007