Offshore rates...
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
that'd be the white guys in suits
Suits in general. I have seen locals be more vicious to their underlings than their western counterparts. :sigh:
Taka Muraoka wrote:
think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers)
No different than taking local (western) technically challenged and teaching them to read a script, except is is cheaper. Offshore doesn't have a lock on incompetents. Just talk to most US high school graduates. When they are not holding up their over sized pants from falling down they are spouting some trite saying that roughly translated means "I have sh!t for brains".
Taka Muraoka wrote:
this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice
At least the person on the other end of the conversation is trying to treat you as a human being and not just an object of contempt. Sorry for the rant but I see the byproduct of modern culture and it is defective in most ways. :((
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
Suits in general. I have seen locals be more vicious to their underlings than their western counterparts.
True. My original comment was a bit opaque but I was implying there is a bit of racism underlying the backlash against offshoring. I don't think we'd be seeing quite the same reaction in the US if it were Aussies and Poms who were working for $20/hour. But looking inwards for the source of the problem is probably a bit too close to home for many people.
JimmyRopes wrote:
Offshore doesn't have a lock on incompetents. Just talk to most US high school graduates.
Yup. I'm sure few of us are surprised by what we read at The Daily WTF and certainly based on a lot of the people I've worked with, I don't think we're exactly in the best position to be pointing a finger at the Indians for crappy work :rolleyes: But not speaking English natively makes a difficult situation even harder.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
Patrick Sears wrote:
It is to the companies. They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost. Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
Very true. I've seen that in too many places.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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I think those rates reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project :)
martin_hughes wrote:
reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project
Hence I generally just give insights on how to maybe solve an issue. I don't hand people out code, unless they don't mind an invoice ;P
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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martin_hughes wrote:
reflect the amount of success employees have getting their work done for them on Code Project
Hence I generally just give insights on how to maybe solve an issue. I don't hand people out code, unless they don't mind an invoice ;P
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
Given the amount of (clearly Indian) people who ask questions, and then piss off, I'd say that's sound advice :)
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Given the amount of (clearly Indian) people who ask questions, and then piss off, I'd say that's sound advice :)
martin_hughes wrote:
people who ask questions, and then piss off
Yeah. A quick thanks or a smiley would be nice. Some kind of acknowledgment :)
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
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Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Junior Developers -- $10/Hour
Wow! That's less than the UK Minimum wage (£5.35 / $10.70).
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... "I wouldn't say boo to a goose. I'm not a coward, I just realise that it would be largely pointless." Ready to Give up - Your help will be much appreciated. My website
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
Why? It's only an issue if you feel you can't compete with these guys. Price is not the only selling point :doh:
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Price is not the only selling point
To U.S. companies, yes, it is. Well, at least it's the biggest driving force. Quality has nothing to do with it. Short-term profits are what drives U.S. companies. Profits drive share price. Share price drives investors. Did you know that the color LCD display was invented in the U.S.? Not a single U.S. manufacturer would build them because there was no short term profits on it. Japanese makers jumped all over them and, eventually, made a mint. In the U.S., it's "satisfy the share holder, now, no matter the cost". If the shareholders aren't happy, they pull their money out...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
Patrick Sears wrote:
They don't care how well the work is done, only that it is done at the lowest cost.
Projects fail all the time and people get their asses kicked for it, or worse, and saying that they did it really cheaply is hardly going to get them any credit. Offshore outsourcing is popular now because people think they can get work done to an acceptable level (whatever that may be), at a cheaper price. So, one of two things is going to happen: either they're wrong and they get burnt and have to try something else, or they're right in which case, WTH shouldn't they? All the people bleating now about the evils about offshore outsourcing and how it's un-<insert your country here>, were they similarly up in arms when manufacturing jobs and the like got shifted overseas? People get so hot under the collar, bitching about Indians and Philippinos and Chinese taking "our" jobs but the reality is that they are just normal people, trying to get ahead, same as us, taking job opportunities that pay far better than what they would be making otherwise. Nothing wrong with that. If you want someone to point the finger at, it should be at upper management (that'd be the white guys in suits) who think that you can take people who speak English as a second language, "train them up" to provide IT support by reading a script (even though they might know nothing about computers), and that this will somehow work, and/or customers are going to be dumb enough not to notice.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Long term consequences don't seem to matter.
It's hardly unique to IT.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
So, one of two things is going to happen: either they're wrong and they get burnt and have to try something else, or they're right in which case, WTH shouldn't they?
Socio-economic arguments aside, because the bottom line shouldn't be all that matters to a socially responsible corporation. Socio-economic arguments in the forefront, the US is becoming a second-rate employer. The brain drain isn't obvious now, but in 25 years when all of our meaningful work is done elsewhere and the ONLY THING the US has to sell is information, other countries are going to start to get wise and take away the last bastion of wealth the US has to offer. We're not doing ourselves any favors by making sure we do none of our own work.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
All the people bleating now about the evils about offshore outsourcing and how it's un-, were they similarly up in arms when manufacturing jobs and the like got shifted overseas?
Yes, they did, for the same reasons. There's a difference between progress and digging our own graves.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
People get so hot under the collar, bitching about Indians and Philippinos and Chinese taking "our" jobs but the reality is that they are just normal people, trying to get ahead, same as us, taking job opportunities that pay far better than what they would be making otherwise. Nothing wrong with that.
I absolutely agree. I don't blame the other nations or the people who do the work.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
If you want someone to point the finger at, it should be at upper management (that'd be the white guys in suits)
That's exactly who I'm talking about. The US management who actually find it acceptable to do as they're doing and expect no fallout to come of it.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Patrick Sears wrote: Long term consequences don't seem to matter. It's hardly unique to IT.
True, but IT/software development is the subject of this thread. I'd go so far as to say very, very few US companies or industries give a damn about long term consequences. Those consequences are near-impossible to quantify, meaning, there's no way to consider their cost - which means it doesn't get considered at all.
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
So, one of two things is going to happen: either they're wrong and they get burnt and have to try something else, or they're right in which case, WTH shouldn't they?
Socio-economic arguments aside, because the bottom line shouldn't be all that matters to a socially responsible corporation. Socio-economic arguments in the forefront, the US is becoming a second-rate employer. The brain drain isn't obvious now, but in 25 years when all of our meaningful work is done elsewhere and the ONLY THING the US has to sell is information, other countries are going to start to get wise and take away the last bastion of wealth the US has to offer. We're not doing ourselves any favors by making sure we do none of our own work.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
All the people bleating now about the evils about offshore outsourcing and how it's un-, were they similarly up in arms when manufacturing jobs and the like got shifted overseas?
Yes, they did, for the same reasons. There's a difference between progress and digging our own graves.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
People get so hot under the collar, bitching about Indians and Philippinos and Chinese taking "our" jobs but the reality is that they are just normal people, trying to get ahead, same as us, taking job opportunities that pay far better than what they would be making otherwise. Nothing wrong with that.
I absolutely agree. I don't blame the other nations or the people who do the work.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
If you want someone to point the finger at, it should be at upper management (that'd be the white guys in suits)
That's exactly who I'm talking about. The US management who actually find it acceptable to do as they're doing and expect no fallout to come of it.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Patrick Sears wrote: Long term consequences don't seem to matter. It's hardly unique to IT.
True, but IT/software development is the subject of this thread. I'd go so far as to say very, very few US companies or industries give a damn about long term consequences. Those consequences are near-impossible to quantify, meaning, there's no way to consider their cost - which means it doesn't get considered at all.
Patrick Sears wrote:
the bottom line shouldn't be all that matters to a socially responsible corporation.
I actually agree with you :-) I think offshoring is a bad move in the long term. The work coming back may not be of the highest quality right now but if there's one thing these guys are, they're hungry, and they learn fast. We're basically training them up to take over our IT sector :doh: As you said, management don't consider the long term because they don't get any credit for doing so. And in the same way one can hardly blame the offshore workers for doing what they do, one can also have some (a very small amount) of sympathy for the situation managers are in. If you or I were in their shoes, would we risk our multi-million dollar bonuses and our job for some nebulous future benefits? The markets would take one look at what we were doing and give a collective and giant WTF?!, and we'd be out on our ear. But it bugs me when people frame this as a issue of nationalism, "it's un-American, Americans are losing jobs." Be against it because yes, it'd be digging our own graves, but nationalism is something I never really got. What if a New York company outsourced some of their work to Des Moines because it was cheaper, would we see the same kind of backlash? Or even Canada? But go the other way and send the work to Mexico and I'm sure you'd see a much different reaction :rolleyes:
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
-
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar posted a link to DotNetSpider[^] as a source for some university project ideas. On the home page, they advertise their own offshore development center in India. The rates? Offshore software Development Are you looking for custom software development? Take advantage of the offshore development. DotNetSpider offers offshore development in India in .NET technologies. We offer world class custom software development in our India development center. Read more about DotNetSpider offshore software development. Rate Card ** Junior Developers -- $10/Hour Senior Developers -- $15/Hour Architects/Managers -- $20/Hour ** Rate may vary by project Oh God, I want to puke! Screw it, I quit. I'm going to work at the corner gas station...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Junior Developers -- $10/Hour
Good god. The company I worked for in college billed my time at $40/hour. In 1982.
Software Zen:
delete this;