Developer's Age !
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Bruce Yes experience is a valuable tool and yes it is harder to keep enthusiasm level up but when you do some awesome things can be done! I've heard the joke before but still a good one! Mike
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
I'm heading toward 50 and still coding.....The big difference now is that most of the easier coding goes to the less-experienced developers. I end up tackling the tough and extremely complex problems, run more peer code reviews and handle more systems design and architecture. When something doesn't work, I'm the "Go-to" guy....and that's a good thing!
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Oh, so some companies care about age, and I think this is practical!
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
Newbie! At least on this forum... You've got to consider the business at the core of the programming as well. I specialize in the IBM Series I (formerly iSeries, formerly i5, formerly AS/400...). I'm 33 years old, didn't even start programming until I was 26. And I am by FAR the youngest person in the RPG group. I'd say average age of the Sr. P/A's (my dubious title) is more like 45, with MANY well over 50. And one of the reasons for that is that you're dealing with a ton of old, not necesarilly nice to look at code - but code that nevertheless runs BILLION dollar businesses, and runs them well. So serious analytical and problem solving skills are very high on skill necessities. Now, RPG is one of those 'relic' languages that folks say is dead/near death, etc. But it's actually very capable at what it is, and that's database programming. And it's used very heavily in something like 1/2 million install bases. It interfaces quite nicely with .Net, which is nice, though most shops use Java to give it web and other capabilities. My plan, of course, is to become very proficient in .Net and other, newer technologies, and keep my current skill set. So when all of the nearing retirement guys I work with actually retire, I will find myself a very valuable resource. Now that is assuming I keep learning, learn well, and keep sharp in this ever changing world of code. Who ever said 'once programming is in your blood...' was so right, I mean, I love coding. And before programming I was a heavy machine gunner in the USMC, then a general contractor. So the change to programming was dramatic to say the least. Ok, so I got a case of the windy post, sorry folks! (LOTS of coffee already this morning ;) )
'Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you are right' - Henry Ford
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
You have a lot to learn about people. Some people are not cut out to be managers. Just because a person gets old does not mean they get wise. Others, simply have not played their career cards right and fell into to the right place at the right time. Some have been managers and have been burned up by the system. It is much easier to be a programmer than to fight the political battles of management. As you grow older your ability to take stress is reduced. Still others just like programming - as others have mentioned. In short, programming is not a career path where the only outcome is management. It is one on many choices. Typically, us older folks get nice cushy jobs in Peoplesoft, Oracle, or application support because we understand the system (both political, reality, and technical) better then our younger upstarts. Think about it as another version of SDLC! Scott
There is a single fine line between smile and smite.
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
as you age you should become a master of your art, the ones that fail to updated their skills fall prey to the young and hungry willing to work extream-long hours writting crappy code for half the pay ;P thinking they are the next best thing...LOL I am willing to bet the next generation, aka the gamer-generation, or is that the chatter-generation are going to get a rude awakening as the seasoned developer of today fight them tooth and nail every inch of the way writting solid code and being more productive...the current generation in control is not the generation of the old-times who wrote cobal or didn't want to upgrade from c to c++! here in the US and Canada the age or retirement seems to be creeping up, and some people just don't want to stop working! i'm almost 40 less 2 years and I know my development craft like the back of my hand and I can code and design in my head and refactor code without too much effort....let's see the young 20 something try to keep up with us old farts...as for me I still feel there is a lot of room to still grow, and I don't feel like 38, I still feel like I am in my 25s ;P I can still pass for 20 something ;P secret is to work on the right projects that will let you show off the skills in demand! work for the right companies and good positions, your resume should speak for you! also develop pet projects to show off you skills and let the body of your work speak for you and not your grey hair if that's what you're worried about??? here in Toronto where I live in the next few years there is going to be a glut of kids coming out of college hungry for work but the demand will not be there, so they will have to flee to the US and complete with international developers, and the old timers!!! as for how you plan your work relative to your age, that's an individual thing and has nothing to do with age!!! it has evrything to do with setting goals and long term plans...something I failed to do....LOL
Yours Truly, The One and Only!
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
Hello Shaker: I'm 55 and doing a lot of code and yes I'm watching to myself looking for signs that will tell me is time to retire but for now on I'm enjoying that must of my programs run pretty well from start due to my experience, time is still an advantage to me, by the way, I just won a tennis tournament trophy against players of all ages. Arturo Martinez
What is the grass? A child asked bringing to me a handful of it, How can I answer him? I also do not know what the grass is.
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
It's funny, I got this post via a link that says: Is programming a "young man's game?" It's neither a young person's game nor a man's game! :) My dad is developer at age 60 and has been in development for nearly 40 years. I'm a developer as well (31 and female). In college, my courses were predomiately male, but in my professional experience, I've worked with as many women as men and of every age group. For the most part, the older developers I've worked with are as highly skilled as the younger. I think the reason many developers choose to switch is that it's not easy to keep up on new technologies along with best practices and the increasing demand for IT services in a given business. Some people get overwhelmed and some thrive. I think it's the nature of the person rather than their age or gender. I personally find technology infectious and can't imagine not doing development.
Brenda
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G#d d#mn! Am I already close to written off as a dev? I actually feel like I'm starting to have a feel for what works and what doesn't, especially how to do complex designs, and recognizing when a design gets too complex for maintenance.
Wout
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You have a lot to learn about people. Some people are not cut out to be managers. Just because a person gets old does not mean they get wise. Others, simply have not played their career cards right and fell into to the right place at the right time. Some have been managers and have been burned up by the system. It is much easier to be a programmer than to fight the political battles of management. As you grow older your ability to take stress is reduced. Still others just like programming - as others have mentioned. In short, programming is not a career path where the only outcome is management. It is one on many choices. Typically, us older folks get nice cushy jobs in Peoplesoft, Oracle, or application support because we understand the system (both political, reality, and technical) better then our younger upstarts. Think about it as another version of SDLC! Scott
There is a single fine line between smile and smite.
Thanks, that was helpful, but on the other hand, you will find out that most of corporates promotes old programmers, to be project managers, while they lack the talent of being a manager, and if you check PMBOK ( PMP book of knowledge ), you will find this warning clearly mentioned, because simply speaking this is the biggest mistake most of organization do, however what you spoke about is exclusive to one technology/product, I just speak about programming in general as a career path! Thank you so much for your post.
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
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It's funny, I got this post via a link that says: Is programming a "young man's game?" It's neither a young person's game nor a man's game! :) My dad is developer at age 60 and has been in development for nearly 40 years. I'm a developer as well (31 and female). In college, my courses were predomiately male, but in my professional experience, I've worked with as many women as men and of every age group. For the most part, the older developers I've worked with are as highly skilled as the younger. I think the reason many developers choose to switch is that it's not easy to keep up on new technologies along with best practices and the increasing demand for IT services in a given business. Some people get overwhelmed and some thrive. I think it's the nature of the person rather than their age or gender. I personally find technology infectious and can't imagine not doing development.
Brenda
Thanks Brenda, It's quite useful what you've posted, also I am just curious to know how could you get this link titled 'young man's game' :), you know what?, the biggest obstacle is how to keep yourself updated, take .NET as an example, 1.x, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and it's growing, what you learn in a year, gets obsolete after another, that's really exhausting, could you tell me how could your father cope with newest releases that keep coming with no break?
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
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I wish I could say that age wasn't an issue. I am only 37 and have been in 2 different jobs as a professional developer that I was considered, and even called once, the "OLD GUY". At one miserable position in Charlotte, NC, I was actually older than my team lead, the group Manager, AND even the Sr. Manager. I caught alot of flack because I was older. The average age there was only 24 or so. The manager, who taught himself VB.NET (poorly might I add) was only 26 and an arrogant little pr!ck. Needless to say, I didn't stay there long! Now, please excuse me while I go take my geritol and my early-mid-morning nap. :laugh:
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
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I don't think age is a real issue. Once programming is in your blood you will do for your entire life, whether as a career or hobby!
Kareem Shaker wrote:
and if you are somehow old, let's say 35,
Age is just a state of mind! Mike @ 58
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
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Thanks Brenda, It's quite useful what you've posted, also I am just curious to know how could you get this link titled 'young man's game' :), you know what?, the biggest obstacle is how to keep yourself updated, take .NET as an example, 1.x, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, and it's growing, what you learn in a year, gets obsolete after another, that's really exhausting, could you tell me how could your father cope with newest releases that keep coming with no break?
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
It's hard to speak for my dad, but I think what's kept him in the field is his willingness to adapt.
Brenda
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I don't think age is a real issue. Once programming is in your blood you will do for your entire life, whether as a career or hobby!
Kareem Shaker wrote:
and if you are somehow old, let's say 35,
Age is just a state of mind! Mike @ 58
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
yeah, I hope to try my hand at game programming after my career in the business app world. Or maybe brewing beer....hmm.
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
It's a lifetime proposition for me. I'm 62 now and still coding merrily away, and with no plan to retire (who can afford to!) . Wayne Saums
codewizard
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How did you come up with the number 35? :rolleyes: The last time I thought 35 was old I was 16. I've worked with programmers who took up programming after retirement. Some were good, some struggled - no different than 20 year olds. Some newbies just have gray hair. I'm 43 - too old to make it as a rock-star so that will remain a hobby and coding is all I plan on doing :) Cheers, Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ "Great job team! Head back to base for debriefing and cocktails."
The Rolling Stones ;P are a living proof that you're never too old to be a rock star!!!! Keep on rocking old timer!!! LOL
Yours Truly, The One and Only!
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It's funny, I got this post via a link that says: Is programming a "young man's game?" It's neither a young person's game nor a man's game! :) My dad is developer at age 60 and has been in development for nearly 40 years. I'm a developer as well (31 and female). In college, my courses were predomiately male, but in my professional experience, I've worked with as many women as men and of every age group. For the most part, the older developers I've worked with are as highly skilled as the younger. I think the reason many developers choose to switch is that it's not easy to keep up on new technologies along with best practices and the increasing demand for IT services in a given business. Some people get overwhelmed and some thrive. I think it's the nature of the person rather than their age or gender. I personally find technology infectious and can't imagine not doing development.
Brenda
If it makes you feel any better, you are now officially one of the guys...LOL ya ya I tell you, he, he looka like a man!
Yours Truly, The One and Only!
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That's great, I know that there are developers aged at 50-60, but never thought about 70!, however it's good to know about that. Thanks.
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
Kareem, My son is a manager for a company that creates military hardware and software. My grandson is a manager of a call center for a software company. My great-grandson uses his computer to play games. I just write code. Been doing it since 1962. Plan to keep on doing it. I'm 74. JimT
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Thanks, that was helpful, but on the other hand, you will find out that most of corporates promotes old programmers, to be project managers, while they lack the talent of being a manager, and if you check PMBOK ( PMP book of knowledge ), you will find this warning clearly mentioned, because simply speaking this is the biggest mistake most of organization do, however what you spoke about is exclusive to one technology/product, I just speak about programming in general as a career path! Thank you so much for your post.
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
Mmmm you are right, just because someone is promoted to management does not mean they are worthly of the position. But then again, your view of a manager is more one sided since you don't really understand the managers role until you have been there. I once was a manager, it was fun til I was downsized. Then I was in trouble because my skills where not sharp enough to compete in an overcrowded market. It took a while to get back into the main stream. Managers need reliability. That is why most young guys don't get management jobs right off the bat. For a manager, stability, understanding your environment, and the organizational politics is more important than technical savvy. I must ask you a question... Do you program for technologies sake, or do you program to solve a problem? A wise programmer understands the problem and the impact of change before he develops the solution.
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The Rolling Stones ;P are a living proof that you're never too old to be a rock star!!!! Keep on rocking old timer!!! LOL
Yours Truly, The One and Only!
_NightOwl_ wrote:
Keep on rocking old timer!!!
Thanks sonny :) Kids these days...sheesh...
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ "Great job team! Head back to base for debriefing and cocktails."
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Hello, Just wanted to know if there are people out there willing to complete their lives in programming, in other words, how do you plan your career vs. your age, I have seen developers aged at 40s and 50s, do you think that the one should quit development at a certain age and shift to technical consultations or project management, and if you are old, and still into code, does this make you small or big ( I think it varies from one country to another ) ? Please share your experience here !
Kareem Shaker http://cairocafe.blogspot.com
I think there is a perception out there that younger is better. Employers like to see the young turks overdosing on no-doze and Mountain Dew and writing incoherent spaghetti code at three in the morning. :zzz: It's hard to convince many people of the "quality over quantity" aspect of business. Would you rather pay an experienced (i.e. "old") contractor $85 per hour to get the job done right in 1,000 hours, or pay $40 per hour to a less experienced (i.e. "young") programmer to do the job in 1,000 hours three times before he gets it right? We know the obvious answer, but I see the latter rather than the former far, far more often. It's like the old bull and the young bull up on the hill looking down at a field of cows. The young bull says, "Let's run down there and grab us each one of them cows!" To which the old bull replies, "No. Let's walk down and get them all." (language sterilized) btw, I'm 39. From some of these responses, I honestly don't know if that makes me young or old! :confused: