Seagate to Stop Making IDE Drives
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At the same clock rate parallel is faster. However at higher clock rates, things like inductance cause interference in parallel cables limiting the clock rate for the cable. I believe that the latest parallel cables had extra wires in them between the signal wires to reduce interference. So, as the silicon got faster the interference in the parallel cables caused a bottleneck, so at the current signal rates serial signals can carry more data.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Brilliant! And it makes sense too, because parallel communication depends upon wires right next to each other being able to change states independently of each other at a high rate. So inductance would definitely interfere if each wire is not carefully shielded from its neighbor.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070725-seagate-plans-to-stop-manufacturing-ide-drives-by-the-end-of-2007.html[^] The beginning of the end for IDE. :^) Does anyone know the technical reasons for how a serial technology overtook the parallel technology? I mean, the whole reason they invented the parallel printer port was that the serial ports were not fast enough, right? So I'm interested to learn why a serial interface was chosen for the next generation hard drive interface.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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At the same clock rate parallel is faster. However at higher clock rates, things like inductance cause interference in parallel cables limiting the clock rate for the cable. I believe that the latest parallel cables had extra wires in them between the signal wires to reduce interference. So, as the silicon got faster the interference in the parallel cables caused a bottleneck, so at the current signal rates serial signals can carry more data.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Well, you can improve noise rejection by using balanced signalling. One wire carries the signal (called D+), another carries the inverse of the signal (D-). At the receiver end, it inverts the inverted signal and adds the two together, getting 2D+. How does that help? Most external noise spikes will appear on both conductors in the same direction. Call the noise N, so the receiver sees (D+ + N) and (D- + N) - when you invert D- + N, you get (D+ - N). Add that to (D+ + N) and you still get 2D+ - the noise has been cancelled out. This kind of differential signalling is used in Base-T(X) networking (over Unshielded Twisted Pair) as well as in USB, Serial ATA, HyperTransport, PCI Express, DVI/HDMI and many others. In cables, having the pairs twisted together causes the magnetic field from D+ to effectively be cancelled out by D-, so there's very little net magnetic field, which therefore induces little current in neighbouring pairs (called crosstalk). The Parallel ATA 80-wire cable places a ground wire between each pair of conductors that carries a useful signal; this ground wire reduces the crosstalk, but not to nothing. I've seen 80-way cables intended for Parallel ATA which actually are not ribbons but bundles of twisted pairs. These are a really bad idea because the crosstalk problem returns - the twisted pairs are not being used for differential signalling so the magnetic fields are still present, and now you can have two signal wires in close proximity. The fact that the signal wire is twisted with a ground wire makes no difference. The main problem for parallel runs now, I believe, is that even minute differences in trace length are causing the data to be unsynchronized at the receiving end (i.e. they arrive at different times). This was always the case, but at the higher speeds, these time delays are starting to fall into the clock realm and the signal may well not have fully stabilised when the clock edge is interpreted, leading to one or more bit errors. You can avoid this to an extent by using some form of error-correcting codes to detect and recover some errors, but it's better to prevent the errors in the first place by avoiding the crosstalk interference. My understanding (based on ten minutes of reading Wikipedia!) is that PCI Express basically makes its single-bit 'lanes' unsynchronized - it's up to the receiver to reassemble the whole message.
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070725-seagate-plans-to-stop-manufacturing-ide-drives-by-the-end-of-2007.html[^] The beginning of the end for IDE. :^) Does anyone know the technical reasons for how a serial technology overtook the parallel technology? I mean, the whole reason they invented the parallel printer port was that the serial ports were not fast enough, right? So I'm interested to learn why a serial interface was chosen for the next generation hard drive interface.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
Does anyone know the technical reasons for how a serial technology overtook the parallel technology?
Manager could save a lot of wires that way. Sure - A Modern re-designed parallel connection would have been faster (see PCIe 16x), But this way they can sell all the new Hardware again - in a few years, when SATA becomes too slow.
Failure is not an option - it's built right in.
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If I understand it correctly the reason is that parallel communication has a host of problems (synchronisation of lines, interference etc) that restrict the speed of data, the distance that data can be sent, and the cost. People realised that serial was just easier, and data can be blasted out at higher speeds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_communications[^]
Didn't you know that this is exactly what happened with USB vs. centronics (the old parellel printer port) ports on printers ? Exactly the same there.
All the label says is that this stuff contains chemicals "... known to the State of California to cause cancer in rats and low-income test subjects."
Roger Wright
http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?select=965687&exp=5&fr=1#xx965687xx -
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070725-seagate-plans-to-stop-manufacturing-ide-drives-by-the-end-of-2007.html[^] The beginning of the end for IDE. :^) Does anyone know the technical reasons for how a serial technology overtook the parallel technology? I mean, the whole reason they invented the parallel printer port was that the serial ports were not fast enough, right? So I'm interested to learn why a serial interface was chosen for the next generation hard drive interface.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
But you can have paralellism with SATA - put two SATA drives in RAID stripe :)
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If I understand it correctly the reason is that parallel communication has a host of problems (synchronisation of lines, interference etc) that restrict the speed of data, the distance that data can be sent, and the cost. People realised that serial was just easier, and data can be blasted out at higher speeds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_communications[^]
Then why aren't SATA drives any faster than IDE drives?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Bastards. Laptop hard drives die often and there isn't a mini IDE to sATA adapter that i know of, so i guess i'll have to stick with WD for the next replacement:sigh: Roswell:(
"Angelinos -- excuse me. There will be civility today."
Antonio VillaRaigosa
City Mayor, Los Angeles, CAFortunately, Toshiba makes a lot of the 2.5 inch IDE drives. :)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Then why aren't SATA drives any faster than IDE drives?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001sustained bandwidth is limited by mechanical properties, for a 7200RPM drive roughly ATA66. SATA2.0 is 2.25x faster than ATA133 until you fill/flush the drives onboard cache. Saving your MS word document is faster even if your code build isn't. Other benefits include the smaller cables being easier to route without obstructing airflow, and being able to use the same phyiscal interface for desktop and laptop HDs. Presumably MP3 player drives would use it as well, but I've never actually seen one disassembled. IIRC the same physical interface is also used for SAS (serial attached scsi), again simplifying the hardware design. The hardware connectors allow hotswapping although outside of scsi land it's rarely if ever implemented on the hardware side.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Then why aren't SATA drives any faster than IDE drives?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001They are faster, the newer EIDE drives are 133MBPS while SATA drives are 150MBPS. The earlier EIDE drives just about matched SATA in performance, but faster BUS speeds are enabling the SATA drive's performance to become visible. It also depends on the RPM of the drive and MB's of onboard cache. SATA also allows Native Command Queuing[^] and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagged_Command_Queuing[^]. I hope this helps :)
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sustained bandwidth is limited by mechanical properties, for a 7200RPM drive roughly ATA66. SATA2.0 is 2.25x faster than ATA133 until you fill/flush the drives onboard cache. Saving your MS word document is faster even if your code build isn't. Other benefits include the smaller cables being easier to route without obstructing airflow, and being able to use the same phyiscal interface for desktop and laptop HDs. Presumably MP3 player drives would use it as well, but I've never actually seen one disassembled. IIRC the same physical interface is also used for SAS (serial attached scsi), again simplifying the hardware design. The hardware connectors allow hotswapping although outside of scsi land it's rarely if ever implemented on the hardware side.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
sustained bandwidth is limited by mechanical properties, for a 7200RPM drive roughly ATA66
As I replied in the thread above there are faster hard drives now. My Samsung HD321KJ has top speed of about 87MB/s. Seagate 7200.11 is supposed to top out at 100MB/s, and I expect new Samsung F1 series with 333GB platters will have top speed of 110-115MB/s
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http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070725-seagate-plans-to-stop-manufacturing-ide-drives-by-the-end-of-2007.html[^] The beginning of the end for IDE. :^) Does anyone know the technical reasons for how a serial technology overtook the parallel technology? I mean, the whole reason they invented the parallel printer port was that the serial ports were not fast enough, right? So I'm interested to learn why a serial interface was chosen for the next generation hard drive interface.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
The technology has reached the point where serial comms can be pushed faster the parallel comms. Not sure about all the signalling etc... Also the Wide 40 conductor cables aren't necessary anymore, thereby reducing cost. That will increase airflow around the drive. Less power consumption since you are not driving as many signals. SATA standard was written to allow for many more drives and higher speeds. They couldn't do that for PATA unless the cabling was changed significantly. Well if you're doing that, then go the whole distance and come up with a new standard altogether. Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
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Then why aren't SATA drives any faster than IDE drives?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001Burst (i.e. reading from disk cache) is.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Bastards. Laptop hard drives die often and there isn't a mini IDE to sATA adapter that i know of, so i guess i'll have to stick with WD for the next replacement:sigh: Roswell:(
"Angelinos -- excuse me. There will be civility today."
Antonio VillaRaigosa
City Mayor, Los Angeles, CARoswellNX wrote:
Bastards. Laptop hard drives die often and there isn't a mini IDE to sATA adapter that i know of, so i guess i'll have to stick with WD for the next replacement Roswell
Well said!
Andrew C. Eisenberg Nashville, TN, USA (a.k.a. Music City USA) (Yes Virginia, there are rock and roll stations in Nashville! :laugh:)
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The technology has reached the point where serial comms can be pushed faster the parallel comms. Not sure about all the signalling etc... Also the Wide 40 conductor cables aren't necessary anymore, thereby reducing cost. That will increase airflow around the drive. Less power consumption since you are not driving as many signals. SATA standard was written to allow for many more drives and higher speeds. They couldn't do that for PATA unless the cabling was changed significantly. Well if you're doing that, then go the whole distance and come up with a new standard altogether. Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
MajorTom123 wrote:
Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
Well, they really aren't forcing you to make an upgrade as they aren't holding a gun to my head. But, they do make it harder and harder to stay with older, but still (mostly) functional hardware. At this point in time, I only plan on getting a new machine if an application that I "must have" won't run on my "old" hardware or like has been mentioned here, it's becomes hard to impossible to replace a broken part. This is because my existing computers, though at least 5 years old, do everything I need them to do. The short technology lifespans may be good for manufacturers, but it is a tremendous waste of resources. (e.g. Oil, copper, silver, gold, steel, aluminum, etc.) And before anyone asks, I am not an environmental activist. But, I simply hate to see waste of finite resources.
Andrew C. Eisenberg Nashville, TN, USA (a.k.a. Music City USA) (Yes Virginia, there are rock and roll stations in Nashville! :laugh:)
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MajorTom123 wrote:
Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
Well, they really aren't forcing you to make an upgrade as they aren't holding a gun to my head. But, they do make it harder and harder to stay with older, but still (mostly) functional hardware. At this point in time, I only plan on getting a new machine if an application that I "must have" won't run on my "old" hardware or like has been mentioned here, it's becomes hard to impossible to replace a broken part. This is because my existing computers, though at least 5 years old, do everything I need them to do. The short technology lifespans may be good for manufacturers, but it is a tremendous waste of resources. (e.g. Oil, copper, silver, gold, steel, aluminum, etc.) And before anyone asks, I am not an environmental activist. But, I simply hate to see waste of finite resources.
Andrew C. Eisenberg Nashville, TN, USA (a.k.a. Music City USA) (Yes Virginia, there are rock and roll stations in Nashville! :laugh:)
Andrew, I agree with your sentiments, but since most governments are not communist, we'll have to have the market force this issue. In our county we have a computer scrap recycling drop off on Saturday. I'm going there to drop off the laser printer that just died. So some of these things are starting to help recycle but we're far from the end. i agree about the "old" computer does what it needs to comment. I too have older equipment that I use everyday. However, I'm about to make the jump to dual or quad core to get that speed boost again. some of this bloatware is getting very slow each time MS updates the OS or the software updates itself. Its like programmers are saying more is better, never get rid of the old nor make it better and faster. Hey, just like Congress and its entitlement programs. I'm not a tree hugger either, but if we can stave off the landfills filling up, then I'm all for it. Cheers.
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The technology has reached the point where serial comms can be pushed faster the parallel comms. Not sure about all the signalling etc... Also the Wide 40 conductor cables aren't necessary anymore, thereby reducing cost. That will increase airflow around the drive. Less power consumption since you are not driving as many signals. SATA standard was written to allow for many more drives and higher speeds. They couldn't do that for PATA unless the cabling was changed significantly. Well if you're doing that, then go the whole distance and come up with a new standard altogether. Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
MajorTom123 wrote:
Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
Upgade? No, it wont. Most people have no idea as to what's inside a computer, so they won't know the difference apart from some obsure acronym on the spec sheet, and a lot of the hard drive sales will still be thru repair shops, becuase the shops aren't gonna be turning people away for not having the latest and the greatest hardware. If Toshiba will be the only manufacturer left interested in making the 2.5 PATA drives, that will "toothpaste" the sales to them. Remember, there are still low-end laptops out there being sold RIGHT NOW that only offer PATA. You can't just tell a guy that bought one a month ago "Hey, toss that thing in the trash, it's obsolete". He'll most likely give you a weird look, and for a good reason. The equation is pretty simple. It's the cost of parts plus the cost of labor plus a surcharge or some sort, and it still comes out chaper than buying a whole new machine. I do some computer repairs on the side and what happens in a case like this, is people will come in and tell me that their laptop computer is making a funny clicking noise and doesn't get past a black screen. They don't care what is wrong, they just want it fixed. I take a look at it, and sure, the HDD is done. I ask them what size and price range they are comfortable with and usually get one from a box here, and if i'm out, i reorder. If in this case i can't reorder Seagates, i'll look at one step down from that. Roswell:)
"Angelinos -- excuse me. There will be civility today."
Antonio VillaRaigosa
City Mayor, Los Angeles, CA -
MajorTom123 wrote:
Also I read through many of these posts and as far as your laptop goes, well, this technology shutdown of PATA drives WILL force you into a new computer. All boats are lifted by this one move. You cannot factor out the "make them upgrade" thoughts that permeate the hardware industry. Vista can't get people to upgrade, but the hardware will.
Upgade? No, it wont. Most people have no idea as to what's inside a computer, so they won't know the difference apart from some obsure acronym on the spec sheet, and a lot of the hard drive sales will still be thru repair shops, becuase the shops aren't gonna be turning people away for not having the latest and the greatest hardware. If Toshiba will be the only manufacturer left interested in making the 2.5 PATA drives, that will "toothpaste" the sales to them. Remember, there are still low-end laptops out there being sold RIGHT NOW that only offer PATA. You can't just tell a guy that bought one a month ago "Hey, toss that thing in the trash, it's obsolete". He'll most likely give you a weird look, and for a good reason. The equation is pretty simple. It's the cost of parts plus the cost of labor plus a surcharge or some sort, and it still comes out chaper than buying a whole new machine. I do some computer repairs on the side and what happens in a case like this, is people will come in and tell me that their laptop computer is making a funny clicking noise and doesn't get past a black screen. They don't care what is wrong, they just want it fixed. I take a look at it, and sure, the HDD is done. I ask them what size and price range they are comfortable with and usually get one from a box here, and if i'm out, i reorder. If in this case i can't reorder Seagates, i'll look at one step down from that. Roswell:)
"Angelinos -- excuse me. There will be civility today."
Antonio VillaRaigosa
City Mayor, Los Angeles, CARoswellNX, You are correct, nearly all users have no clue what's inside. And yes they will still push out PATA right now. But you have to agree this may make many HD mfgs shutdown their lines as soon as they can. When that happens there are no more hard drives except what's pulled from ailing computers. By "upgrade" I mean in user-speak, they'll buy a whole new system. I've had friends who did not consult with me, went to Best Buy, somehow got hooked up with a pusher (Best Buy calls them sales people) and they ended up buying a whole new computer because theirs was slowing down and sometimes locking up. Not smart of them, but yeah they are just users and want it fixed. The "fix" for them is to buy a whole new box. At least your friends consult you before being talked into something they don't need. I don't even charge friends to upgrade their system. Oh well, maybe if I did they would come to me more. Go figure.
