win32...MFC...obsolete?
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Career? Haha.. I'm 14 so programming isn't my career :p And I don't see why .NET would take off..? It's a Microsoft product, and the user has to download the framework for .NET applications to run.. --PerspX
"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." - Bill Gates
Perspx wrote:
I'm 14 so programming
Stop aking stupid questions then.
Perspx wrote:
And I don't see why .NET would take off..?
.net has taken off, actually then demend for jobs in .net development out strip other jobs.
Perspx wrote:
and the user has to download the framework for .NET applications to run
Vista is shipped with .net 3.0, most machines connected to the internet will receive .net 1.1, .net 2.0 through autoupdates. And to deploy .net accross a windows domains takes under a minute. So if you don't like .net, go to java some genre just bad tools to develop with.
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
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It most certainly wasn't a "mad rush". Further, the job includes C++ and even a little PHP. I'm certainly expanding my skillset, but I still consider myself to be a C++ programmer first and foremost. Lastly, I may be working in C#/.Net, but you should never assume for even a fraction of a second that my personal view regarding .Net has changed in even the slightest of measurements.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001We'll see in about 1 year ;)
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
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I'll take a stab at answering your question in a (hopefully) objective and useful manner. The .NET framework (like MFC) is layered on top of the Win32 API, which is itself implemented as a collection of dlls that make up the Windows operating system. So it seems unlikely that Win32 will disappear in the near future. If you're selecting a Windows technology to learn - or one in which to implement a new product, you're better off using .NET or MFC instead of the Win32 API. Given a choice, I would definitely select .NET. After programming in MFC for 14 years, I find the functionality provided by the .NET framework to be orders of magnitude richer. Note, you can't (yet) do absolutely everything in .NET - you may still need to occasionally call out to a Win32 API, and that's what P/Invoke[^] is for. Hope this helps. /ravi
This is your brain on Celcius Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
If you're selecting a Windows technology to learn - or one in which to implement a new product, you're better off using .NET or MFC instead of the Win32 API. Given a choice, I would definitely select .NET. After programming in MFC for 14 years, I find the functionality provided by the .NET framework to be orders of magnitude richer. Note, you can't (yet) do absolutely everything in .NET - you may still need to occasionally call out to a Win32 API, and that's what P/Invoke[^] is for.
Ravi you said it in a nutshell.
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
If you're selecting a Windows technology to learn - or one in which to implement a new product, you're better off using .NET or MFC instead of the Win32 API. Given a choice, I would definitely select .NET. After programming in MFC for 14 years, I find the functionality provided by the .NET framework to be orders of magnitude richer. Note, you can't (yet) do absolutely everything in .NET - you may still need to occasionally call out to a Win32 API, and that's what P/Invoke[^] is for.
Ravi you said it in a nutshell.
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
WPF stinks, it causes more page-faults than Winforms and GDI+ apps. XML is quite often an extremelly bloated approach that is punishing a lot of work out there for blindly adopting it. .NET gives you no advantage over anything or anyone, you join the crowd and bandwagon, and lose out because it is necessary evil others blindly push. You get lazy and learn very little about the principles behind all the stuff we are supposed to understand. .NET is aimed at the masses and will stay that way. I would take DHTML and SVG and OpenGL any day, plenty of proof it works better than MS has come up with. And the language and platform religion you chose after all does not matter that much, heck in fact new C++0x and friends will give you the most concise and rich platform for your logic. The UI technology bit you should (or will have to sooner than later) keep 'open' (people are suffering migrating from each one adopted before...) Whether WTL/MFC/GDI+/WinForm/WPF is just an implementation detail too but at least the most important part of your work will not rot every time MS decides to overwhelm your PC with memory leakage and lock-in. Those who say C++ is obsolete keep forgeting they have no pixel on the screen without it. Or that their beloved framework is not capable of doing anything as sophisticated at compile time. Those who slate COM are unaware any web-page view they do, or even their logon, keep ignoring their machines use more of it than .NET throughtout the day.
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WPF stinks, it causes more page-faults than Winforms and GDI+ apps. XML is quite often an extremelly bloated approach that is punishing a lot of work out there for blindly adopting it. .NET gives you no advantage over anything or anyone, you join the crowd and bandwagon, and lose out because it is necessary evil others blindly push. You get lazy and learn very little about the principles behind all the stuff we are supposed to understand. .NET is aimed at the masses and will stay that way. I would take DHTML and SVG and OpenGL any day, plenty of proof it works better than MS has come up with. And the language and platform religion you chose after all does not matter that much, heck in fact new C++0x and friends will give you the most concise and rich platform for your logic. The UI technology bit you should (or will have to sooner than later) keep 'open' (people are suffering migrating from each one adopted before...) Whether WTL/MFC/GDI+/WinForm/WPF is just an implementation detail too but at least the most important part of your work will not rot every time MS decides to overwhelm your PC with memory leakage and lock-in. Those who say C++ is obsolete keep forgeting they have no pixel on the screen without it. Or that their beloved framework is not capable of doing anything as sophisticated at compile time. Those who slate COM are unaware any web-page view they do, or even their logon, keep ignoring their machines use more of it than .NET throughtout the day.
User of Users Group wrote:
WPF stinks, it causes more page-faults than Winforms and GDI+ apps.
With the speed of CPUs, multicores cheap RAM - who cares? The user certainly doesn't, they'd prefer rich UI.
User of Users Group wrote:
XML is quite often an extremelly bloated approach that is punishing a lot of work out there for blindly adopting it.
That I can agree with, horses for courses, XML isn't always the right solution.
User of Users Group wrote:
.NET gives you no advantage over anything or anyone, you join the crowd and bandwagon, and lose out because it is necessary evil others blindly push. You get lazy and learn very little about the principles behind all the stuff we are supposed to understand.
Believe me I'd developed C/Win32 apps, C++/Win32 apps, MFC apps, WTL apps, ATL apps, and before .net is MORE productive over these other methods for developing Windows apps. I know and understand all technology this is built on (Win32/COM).
User of Users Group wrote:
.NET is aimed at the masses and will stay that way.
Yes and the availibity for jobs goes hand in hand.
User of Users Group wrote:
would take DHTML and SVG and OpenGL any day, plenty of proof it works better than MS has come up with. And the language and platform religion you chose after all does not matter that much, heck in fact new C++0x and friends will give you the most concise and rich platform for your logic. The UI technology bit you should (or will have to sooner than later) keep 'open' (people are suffering migrating from each one adopted before...)
Horses for courses again, mission critical apps (C++), Web (HTML, asp.net), Rich UI (WPF).
User of Users Group wrote:
Whether WTL/MFC/GDI+/WinForm/WPF is just an implementation detail too but at least the most important part of your work will not rot every time MS decides to overwhelm your PC with memory leakage and lock-in.
Never had problems with performance, my apps are coded correctly, not bothered about lock in Windows is the platform I target for.
User of Users Group wrote:
Those who say C++ is obsolete keep forgeting they have no pixel on the screen without it. Or tha
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User of Users Group wrote:
WPF stinks, it causes more page-faults than Winforms and GDI+ apps.
With the speed of CPUs, multicores cheap RAM - who cares? The user certainly doesn't, they'd prefer rich UI.
User of Users Group wrote:
XML is quite often an extremelly bloated approach that is punishing a lot of work out there for blindly adopting it.
That I can agree with, horses for courses, XML isn't always the right solution.
User of Users Group wrote:
.NET gives you no advantage over anything or anyone, you join the crowd and bandwagon, and lose out because it is necessary evil others blindly push. You get lazy and learn very little about the principles behind all the stuff we are supposed to understand.
Believe me I'd developed C/Win32 apps, C++/Win32 apps, MFC apps, WTL apps, ATL apps, and before .net is MORE productive over these other methods for developing Windows apps. I know and understand all technology this is built on (Win32/COM).
User of Users Group wrote:
.NET is aimed at the masses and will stay that way.
Yes and the availibity for jobs goes hand in hand.
User of Users Group wrote:
would take DHTML and SVG and OpenGL any day, plenty of proof it works better than MS has come up with. And the language and platform religion you chose after all does not matter that much, heck in fact new C++0x and friends will give you the most concise and rich platform for your logic. The UI technology bit you should (or will have to sooner than later) keep 'open' (people are suffering migrating from each one adopted before...)
Horses for courses again, mission critical apps (C++), Web (HTML, asp.net), Rich UI (WPF).
User of Users Group wrote:
Whether WTL/MFC/GDI+/WinForm/WPF is just an implementation detail too but at least the most important part of your work will not rot every time MS decides to overwhelm your PC with memory leakage and lock-in.
Never had problems with performance, my apps are coded correctly, not bothered about lock in Windows is the platform I target for.
User of Users Group wrote:
Those who say C++ is obsolete keep forgeting they have no pixel on the screen without it. Or tha
> With the speed of CPUs, multicores cheap RAM - who cares? The user certainly doesn't, they'd prefer rich UI. That kind of thinking got us a Cobol 'revolution' and such innovation and care it stays with us for a long time :-p So you are a believer it will last, great! It is not likely CLR will help you achieve the best out of your multicores (no parallel way forward), nor with 'cheap RAM' (it isn't cheap and it never will be, you can get a PC that will run 3 Linux-es or QNXs in parallel and more efficient for the money you would pay for that 2GB memory, not to mention the OS licence). So like an opportunity to whack 3 moderately complex WPF apps on a single machine and see it crumble and halt the OS littered with anti virus, firewall and what not services? Heck even if you managed to cool them all down try some interaction, you thought WinForm is bad, watch out for that monster. Hang on, now, just install Infragistics and run 3 samples, you don't even need WPF to see how the entire garbage scales. Good luck with that market and licences involved, the model changed for many, and many times over. Picking on a straw that it is C (you know well C is a subset of C++), but lets stop for a second on the 'facts straight'. How can you verify GDI+ is assembler? Especially on Vista? Heck even XP? It always looked more like enhanced Java::awt::Graphics :-p they needed to patch that WinForm junk. Your opportunity is not mine and vice versa. Your CLR and your Java is implemeneted in C++, but I agree different problem domains different garbage to be used to get the job done. I will give you that point any day, but it is not a solution, it is means to an end to remain competative by adopting the greater evil in the long run and not bother with the problem you should be noticing is blowing out of all proportions. I still see dual quad core Xeon 3.0 GHz machines become hogged or under-utilised. And that is disgrace to me, no matter how narrow my mind gets :-p
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You must have not read past the first sentence of the quote. He is fully aware that XML is not a programming language. His point is that it makes for a terrible programming language because it is in fact NOT one. Go back and re-read the entire quote, and even better, read the article.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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> With the speed of CPUs, multicores cheap RAM - who cares? The user certainly doesn't, they'd prefer rich UI. That kind of thinking got us a Cobol 'revolution' and such innovation and care it stays with us for a long time :-p So you are a believer it will last, great! It is not likely CLR will help you achieve the best out of your multicores (no parallel way forward), nor with 'cheap RAM' (it isn't cheap and it never will be, you can get a PC that will run 3 Linux-es or QNXs in parallel and more efficient for the money you would pay for that 2GB memory, not to mention the OS licence). So like an opportunity to whack 3 moderately complex WPF apps on a single machine and see it crumble and halt the OS littered with anti virus, firewall and what not services? Heck even if you managed to cool them all down try some interaction, you thought WinForm is bad, watch out for that monster. Hang on, now, just install Infragistics and run 3 samples, you don't even need WPF to see how the entire garbage scales. Good luck with that market and licences involved, the model changed for many, and many times over. Picking on a straw that it is C (you know well C is a subset of C++), but lets stop for a second on the 'facts straight'. How can you verify GDI+ is assembler? Especially on Vista? Heck even XP? It always looked more like enhanced Java::awt::Graphics :-p they needed to patch that WinForm junk. Your opportunity is not mine and vice versa. Your CLR and your Java is implemeneted in C++, but I agree different problem domains different garbage to be used to get the job done. I will give you that point any day, but it is not a solution, it is means to an end to remain competative by adopting the greater evil in the long run and not bother with the problem you should be noticing is blowing out of all proportions. I still see dual quad core Xeon 3.0 GHz machines become hogged or under-utilised. And that is disgrace to me, no matter how narrow my mind gets :-p
Oh well we have our differences, ideally I would like to work on a OS where I could develop with C/C++/Assembler all day, but alas I live in a commercial world driven by businesses requiring fast development; looks like it's c# and .net :rose:
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
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Oh well we have our differences, ideally I would like to work on a OS where I could develop with C/C++/Assembler all day, but alas I live in a commercial world driven by businesses requiring fast development; looks like it's c# and .net :rose:
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
With you there. So piece, love and all.. I will do my C# when I have to (more like if it can be afforded in my case). I love how it helps you get to a consice and clean formulation and I am for all languages and all platforms, as long as they don't hit at 1000+ page faults or 20% CPU utilisation per millisecond on interaction or repaint. And 3.5 will not do it, it is now comparable to JDK 6.0 in 'breadth'/baggage (for Web not just local UI) and their VM and Solaris OS have gone open source. www.distrowatch.org shows the trend where the old OS and C guys are putting their spare time in (total independence and control). If they could just start using more of boost and less C/assembler we'd get a better API than CLR or Win32 for sure.
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I heard we want to be switched over by this fall, when all Win32/MFC/C++/C# support is dropped. :rolleyes:
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ :java:
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>> this fall, when all Win32/MFC/C++/C# support is dropped. << With the "Microsoft MVP" under your name, it can't be assumed you're joking. Do you have a link for that, or hopefully you ARE joking ?
pg--az
Yes I'm joking. MVPs are allowed to do that too. :) Any time these C++/MFC obsolete conversations come up, it's a joke. I threw C# in there just to make it really "funny". Cheers! Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ :java:
