Do you believe in ghosts?
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Luis Alonso Ramos wrote:
free day at school!
And at work :)
A polar bear is a bear whose coordinates has been changed in terms of sine and cosine. Quanehsti Pah Nation States
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
And at work
For everyone else, yes! But isn't it like Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve (or May 5th) that it is not an official holiday? AFAIK, some business usually give half of the day free only. In anyway, I can have a free day any normal day, or have to work any holiday, depending on the amount of work I have :)
Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix Chihuahua, Mexico
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I, personally, don’t know if ghosts exist or not, despite some anecdotal evidence that is purely conjecture from a residence where there was a feeling of an “other wordily” presence. This was a very old house (mud and stone construction) and the presence was felt by other inhabitants of the house as well. I mentioned it and there was immediate recognition that it was a female presence without my mentioning that. Strange! Anyway, the incident I am thinking of involves my wife, her father and a villager who in despair decided to end it all. He was an affable fellow, at least that was his outward appearance, but things got to be too much and he hanged himself. Unfortunately, my wife’s cousin came across his dead body hanging from an electrical pylon when she went out to feed the ducks one morning. Funeral rites were held and his body was cremated, in the Buddhist tradition. As a bit of background, the village is predominately Khmer, and some traditions predate Buddhism, and can best be described as animist. My house is on the edge of the village and on a typical day there are more, many more, buffalo and cows pass my house than cars or motorcycles. All of the animal traffic and most of the mechanized traffic occurs during daylight hours as the herds are moved from the barn to the grazing areas during the day and back in the evening. After this fellow decided to end it all there are no cars or motorcycles that pass after dark. Not that there were many before, but now there are none! When asked my wife she told me that people don’t come this way because of the ghosts! In fact her father doesn’t come over to watch TV in the dark any more because of the ghosts. My wife now asks me to accompany her when she goes out to the “Hong Nam” (toilet/bath house) to take a “shower” (bird bath) after dark. I asked why she wanted me to accompany her and her response was “aren’t you afraid of the ghosts?” [specifically this tortured soul that recently hung himself]”. She was appalled when I answered that “no I wasn’t” and that if he wanted to visit and have a drink I would be happy to drink with him. By way of background, we have 2 spirit houses (Katum Ta (Grandfather's Hut); in Khmer) on the property; one for our ancestors and one for any wandering, or traveling, spirits who need a place to stay. I told her that we -- me and this fellow -- were friends in life (we were cordial and did share many drinks in friendship when he was alive) so I didn’t fear him in the afterlife. My wife freaked
I've lived and worked in 100+ year old houses and buildings for a good part of my life. I even have a picture of my haunted laptop with it surrounded by the orbs of dead geeks :). I've yet to see any real evidence of ghosts. Therefore, I don't believe they actually exist. Of course, what any of us believe makes no difference to what someone else believes.. that's the very definition of belief.
patbob
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Steve_pqr wrote:
Did christianity exist before Jesus?
Um... What was the Jesus guy's name, again? The latest (fact-based; none of your airy-fairy wishful or blinkered thinking) archaeological theories state that the cult that Jesus was involved in disseminating was elevated by his crucifiction (pun intended) to "serious" status, and that Jesus' older brother, who was the organisational brain of the cult, used Jesus' name to push things as far as he could. It's not absolutely certain whether Jesus had already taken on the name "Christus" before his death, or if it was just a bit of PR, on the part of the cult. What the cult was called before "Christian" was added to its name is uncertain, still (the Middle East was then, and still is now, a hive of intermingled and opposing religious cults), because it was most likely a typical (for that region) conglomeration of smaller cults.
Anyone who didn't yet see "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" really ought to about now. It has a lot more truth to it than the believers would care to face.
"Pass Me the Holy Hand Grenade."
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The notion of evil spirits in the bible and demonic spirits is a bit of grape-vine theology for most accounts. For example you can read that a "spirit of anger" came upon someone. Is this truly a demonic spirit or is this a person momentarily losing self-control and giving themselves over to an act of anger? There are most certainly demons in the bible. In (Matthew I think) Christs cast a demon out of a man and into a heard of pigs... 3 brothers go about claiming they can cast out spirits but they run into one who claims that he knows "Jesus" and that he knows "Paul" but them he has never heard of and he then beats them severely and rips off all their clothes. You can certainly find many references to demons in the bible. Not a single reference to ghosts or hauntings. I do believe that people can get themselves into trouble if they go seeking demonic influence or satanic cults. I won't speak to it in great detail as I have no desire to know or to repeat what they may find. I'm not sure at all myself but from stories told by those who have experienced it in the first person and those who have witnessed it... I have no desire to take any part in any of it. The reason you don't find more Christians going around and "casting out" demons is that it's a seriously risky business and you better know what you are doing and you had better have been gifted to do it and it *better* be for the glory of He that dwells in you and not your own. I know a few men that I consider tremendous who have casually told stories where they have entered houses or other places under demonic occupation and called them to leave in the "authority of Christ" and then given Christ the glory for the success. This I do believe. I can tell these men are sincere and that they did see and experience what they claim. They also only tell those stories when it's appropriate, they don't seek monetary gain or to attract followers and they only retell the account to bring glory to Christ not themselves. There is zero mention of ghosts in the bible but of demons and demonic forces their are references in many places. Christians do have authority and power over demons and demonic forces and that power comes through a faith and belief of Jesus Christ who then bestows His spirit upon the believer and empowers them to overcome the demonic forces in this life. In saying this I do not believe that every Christian is called to expel demons. I believe some are gifted to that just as some are gifted to counsel in marriage and other issues. I do believe that church
code-frog wrote:
Christians do have authority and power over demons and demonic forces and that power comes through a faith and belief of Jesus Christ
What arrogance! I would have held my tongue, but let me set you straight: christianity created it's phalanx of demons, hell, and so forth for the sole purpose of scaring the ignorant into accepting their polytheistic faith and keeping the believers under the thumb of the church hierarchy. Then, of course, there are those they coopted, with their usual charitable hearts, by offering the starving food if they convert (e.g., 'Rice Christians'). And when it comes to terrorism? Al Qiada (&etc.) has a long long way to go before it can catch up with christianities idea of the addressing the non-believer 'question'. You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems. The religion of love! Apologies who really understand their faith (a la, the prophet Milachai), where it is noted that diety accepts prayer as though it were to Him, even from idol worshipers, for it is the intent of the worship that counts. -- modified at 13:29 Wednesday 1st August, 2007
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code-frog wrote:
Christians do have authority and power over demons and demonic forces and that power comes through a faith and belief of Jesus Christ
What arrogance! I would have held my tongue, but let me set you straight: christianity created it's phalanx of demons, hell, and so forth for the sole purpose of scaring the ignorant into accepting their polytheistic faith and keeping the believers under the thumb of the church hierarchy. Then, of course, there are those they coopted, with their usual charitable hearts, by offering the starving food if they convert (e.g., 'Rice Christians'). And when it comes to terrorism? Al Qiada (&etc.) has a long long way to go before it can catch up with christianities idea of the addressing the non-believer 'question'. You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems. The religion of love! Apologies who really understand their faith (a la, the prophet Milachai), where it is noted that diety accepts prayer as though it were to Him, even from idol worshipers, for it is the intent of the worship that counts. -- modified at 13:29 Wednesday 1st August, 2007
Um... okay.:rolleyes: No need to set me straight. Go set the bible straight and I'll stay out of it. Have a good time.
What I am up to: ReadyToGiveUp(Not!)[^] What friends are up to:SQLServerCentral[^]
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code-frog wrote:
Christians do have authority and power over demons and demonic forces and that power comes through a faith and belief of Jesus Christ
What arrogance! I would have held my tongue, but let me set you straight: christianity created it's phalanx of demons, hell, and so forth for the sole purpose of scaring the ignorant into accepting their polytheistic faith and keeping the believers under the thumb of the church hierarchy. Then, of course, there are those they coopted, with their usual charitable hearts, by offering the starving food if they convert (e.g., 'Rice Christians'). And when it comes to terrorism? Al Qiada (&etc.) has a long long way to go before it can catch up with christianities idea of the addressing the non-believer 'question'. You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems. The religion of love! Apologies who really understand their faith (a la, the prophet Milachai), where it is noted that diety accepts prayer as though it were to Him, even from idol worshipers, for it is the intent of the worship that counts. -- modified at 13:29 Wednesday 1st August, 2007
Balboos wrote:
You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems.
I cannot tell if you are asking me this or not. But I'll answer. I'm not here to play God and judge the hearts of men and their intentions. I sit in judgment of my own life as that's all I will be called to answer for. I will not judge you, your beliefs or your intentions it's explicitly stated in the bible I read that I am in no position to do so and I choose not to. I do not know what is in your heart when you pray or who you seek to pray to or how you orient the belief of your prayer. I cannot perfectly understand your heart nor can I perfectly understand your motives and as a result I have no authority to judge you and I don't, won't and will not. It's between you and God. My life is hard enough to balance and be responsible for I'd hate to be responsible for yours as well. I'd fail at that task and miserably. If you ask me questions I'll do my best to answer you to the degree I have an understanding but I would always encourage you to read the bible on your own and seek your own interpretation of what you find there. I am not the Holy Spirit and I have no ability to bring any truth into your life. I can only tell you what truth has been revealed in my life as it applies to me only. You would have to seek the truth on your own and whatever truth you find is absolutely free of my judgment though I would be happy to discuss (not argue just discuss) what you found and I'd respect your views with absolute tolerance and respect. Does that help you to see where I am coming from and what I believe? - Rex
What I am up to: ReadyToGiveUp(Not!)[^] What friends are up to:SQLServerCentral[^]
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Balboos wrote:
You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems.
I cannot tell if you are asking me this or not. But I'll answer. I'm not here to play God and judge the hearts of men and their intentions. I sit in judgment of my own life as that's all I will be called to answer for. I will not judge you, your beliefs or your intentions it's explicitly stated in the bible I read that I am in no position to do so and I choose not to. I do not know what is in your heart when you pray or who you seek to pray to or how you orient the belief of your prayer. I cannot perfectly understand your heart nor can I perfectly understand your motives and as a result I have no authority to judge you and I don't, won't and will not. It's between you and God. My life is hard enough to balance and be responsible for I'd hate to be responsible for yours as well. I'd fail at that task and miserably. If you ask me questions I'll do my best to answer you to the degree I have an understanding but I would always encourage you to read the bible on your own and seek your own interpretation of what you find there. I am not the Holy Spirit and I have no ability to bring any truth into your life. I can only tell you what truth has been revealed in my life as it applies to me only. You would have to seek the truth on your own and whatever truth you find is absolutely free of my judgment though I would be happy to discuss (not argue just discuss) what you found and I'd respect your views with absolute tolerance and respect. Does that help you to see where I am coming from and what I believe? - Rex
What I am up to: ReadyToGiveUp(Not!)[^] What friends are up to:SQLServerCentral[^]
Alas, yes, but not in the manner which you intend. I lived, once upon a time, in West Virginia - a rather religiously oriented area. One of the secretaries had a sonnet about christians and love. It was sweet enough to read, containing lines such as 'Only a chrsitian could understand and soothe, only a christian could . . ." What such items are is poison wrapped in honey. 'Only a christian . . . ' indirectly casts others into a negative light by inuendo. Much as you did in your original post, where you declared that only christians were given the power to cast out demons. Your post is, possibly unconciously on your part, a version of this particular version of propaganda, this poison wrapped in honey. Backing off, on the surface, into a state of being willing to listen and discuss with tolerence. But you've already shown that in your heart, you have bestowed yourself with special status and privilage as a christian. So many claims of being non-judgemental - but you've shown the opposite to be true by inuendo. Think about the concept - how often do you exclude yourself from the rest of humankind as having some special enlightenment that takes you a step closer to the heavens? From your generalized postings - where you exude religion on a software development oriented website (Lounge though it is) - you pretty much have the world divided up into the groups of "WE" and "NOT WE". The first step in a crusade/jihad/&etc. Selah.
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I, personally, don’t know if ghosts exist or not, despite some anecdotal evidence that is purely conjecture from a residence where there was a feeling of an “other wordily” presence. This was a very old house (mud and stone construction) and the presence was felt by other inhabitants of the house as well. I mentioned it and there was immediate recognition that it was a female presence without my mentioning that. Strange! Anyway, the incident I am thinking of involves my wife, her father and a villager who in despair decided to end it all. He was an affable fellow, at least that was his outward appearance, but things got to be too much and he hanged himself. Unfortunately, my wife’s cousin came across his dead body hanging from an electrical pylon when she went out to feed the ducks one morning. Funeral rites were held and his body was cremated, in the Buddhist tradition. As a bit of background, the village is predominately Khmer, and some traditions predate Buddhism, and can best be described as animist. My house is on the edge of the village and on a typical day there are more, many more, buffalo and cows pass my house than cars or motorcycles. All of the animal traffic and most of the mechanized traffic occurs during daylight hours as the herds are moved from the barn to the grazing areas during the day and back in the evening. After this fellow decided to end it all there are no cars or motorcycles that pass after dark. Not that there were many before, but now there are none! When asked my wife she told me that people don’t come this way because of the ghosts! In fact her father doesn’t come over to watch TV in the dark any more because of the ghosts. My wife now asks me to accompany her when she goes out to the “Hong Nam” (toilet/bath house) to take a “shower” (bird bath) after dark. I asked why she wanted me to accompany her and her response was “aren’t you afraid of the ghosts?” [specifically this tortured soul that recently hung himself]”. She was appalled when I answered that “no I wasn’t” and that if he wanted to visit and have a drink I would be happy to drink with him. By way of background, we have 2 spirit houses (Katum Ta (Grandfather's Hut); in Khmer) on the property; one for our ancestors and one for any wandering, or traveling, spirits who need a place to stay. I told her that we -- me and this fellow -- were friends in life (we were cordial and did share many drinks in friendship when he was alive) so I didn’t fear him in the afterlife. My wife freaked
Of course I believe in ghosts. I use one to backup my laptop.:laugh: Nice software...
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I have reasonable doubts about ghosts because I respect science, but I tend to believe in them more than not. The main reason I tend to believe in ghosts is the large body of historical accounts, and the seemingly preposterous ways that disbelievers try to dismiss the reports out of hand. For instance, a couple of years ago I read a report about someone who said he was standing in his bathroom when suddenly he was shoved violently by an unseen force. Critics said that he simply had a muscle spasm. This is what I mean by preposterous. Anyone who has actually had a muscle spasm knows that it is possible to tell the difference between it and a push from an outside force. There was also a lot of other unexplained activity surrounding that case, so it's not like that was the only incident.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
Critics said that he simply had a muscle spasm. This is what I mean by preposterous. Anyone who has actually had a muscle spasm knows that it is possible to tell the difference between it and a push from an outside force.
That is assuming a lot. There are people that go to hospitals all the time claiming various aliments that not only are not supported by the actual evidence but in some cases are impossible. As one example people go to hospitals because they think that their heartburn is a heart attack. Even though I have never had heartburn nor a heart attack I would suppose that someone should, with experience, be able to tell the difference. I would suspect that some people can not tell the difference though and others, because like me, don't have the experience will not know the difference. So I certainly don't find it impossible that some people who have had a muscle spasm think that it was something else. And of course that discounts the more mundane explanations such as lying for various reasons.
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JimmyRopes wrote:
Do you believe in ghosts?
No chance. I also don't believe in seances, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, or anyone else who seeks to steal the money of the feeble minded. It's all rubbish, as far as I am concerned. No offence to your wife.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I also don't believe in seances, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, or anyone else who seeks to steal the money of the feeble minded. It's all rubbish, as far as I am concerned. No offence to your wife.
That is substantially different however. Those examples that you named are people (living ones) seeking some materialistic gain from you based on what your beliefs are already or what they might be able to convince you to believe in. There is quite a bit of difference in believing in ghosts and hiring someone to rid your house of ghosts. And of course there are certainly possibilities where you might not believe in ghosts and yet might hire someone who does get rid of ghosts - for example if a customer that represents a significant contract to you states that your house/place of work is haunted and they need to to fix that problem first.
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Richie308 wrote:
Did you know that reincarnation was initially an official part of Christianity, until the Vatican arbitrarily chose to eliminate it?
Can you prove this ? Reincarnation directly contracts the words of Jesus, and therefore have never been part of Christianity, nor could they be. Some sect may have believed it, but Jesus sure didn't. He gets dibs on defining Christianity.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
Can you prove this ? Reincarnation directly contracts the words of Jesus, and therefore have never been part of Christianity, nor could they be. Some sect may have believed it, but Jesus sure didn't. He gets dibs on defining Christianity.
As I understand it Catholics are Christians and yet the Pope, not Christ, defines the tenets of the faith. I could be mistaken however.
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code-frog wrote:
Christians do have authority and power over demons and demonic forces and that power comes through a faith and belief of Jesus Christ
What arrogance! I would have held my tongue, but let me set you straight: christianity created it's phalanx of demons, hell, and so forth for the sole purpose of scaring the ignorant into accepting their polytheistic faith and keeping the believers under the thumb of the church hierarchy. Then, of course, there are those they coopted, with their usual charitable hearts, by offering the starving food if they convert (e.g., 'Rice Christians'). And when it comes to terrorism? Al Qiada (&etc.) has a long long way to go before it can catch up with christianities idea of the addressing the non-believer 'question'. You are of the faith that teaches that if one isn't baptized before they die, they go to eternal torture: innocent baby's, and all, it seems. The religion of love! Apologies who really understand their faith (a la, the prophet Milachai), where it is noted that diety accepts prayer as though it were to Him, even from idol worshipers, for it is the intent of the worship that counts. -- modified at 13:29 Wednesday 1st August, 2007
Balboos wrote:
I would have held my tongue, but let me set you straight: christianity created it's phalanx of demons, hell, and so forth for the sole purpose of scaring the ignorant into accepting their polytheistic faith and keeping the believers under the thumb of the church hierarchy. ... Apologies who really understand their faith (a la, the prophet Milachai), where it is noted that diety accepts prayer as though it were to Him, even from idol worshipers, for it is the intent of the worship that counts.
The nature of belief is in fact that it is a belief. Any belief regardless of how wrong it may seem to another is still a belief. It can only be judged in terms of other beliefs and abscence of those other beliefs is not better nor worse than any other. Not to mention that perhaps you are confusing to some extent organized religion versus religion in general.
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No intent to sound insulting, but: Your post reminds me in form (and substance) like one of those e-mails that are supposed to be sent to everyone you know. Consider the following: placebo medications are typically 30% effective during drug trials - particularly those for medications that bring relief rather than cure. That is a amazingtestament to the mind's ability to create what it wishes to perceive. If someone wants to believe in ghosts and haunting, then they'll asign appropriate cause to observed (and unobserved) effects. Without fail, the mystical world relies upon anecdotal 'accounts', unwitnessed 'facts', and most importantly neglect of contradictory evidence. Apparently, in the world of mysticism, cherry picking data is always in season.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
Balboos wrote:
Consider the following: placebo medications are typically 30% effective during drug trials - particularly those for medications that bring relief rather than cure. That is a amazingtestament to the mind's ability to create what it wishes to perceive. If someone wants to believe in ghosts and haunting, then they'll asign appropriate cause to observed (and unobserved) effects. Without fail, the mystical world relies upon anecdotal 'accounts', unwitnessed 'facts', and most importantly neglect of contradictory evidence. Apparently, in the world of mysticism, cherry picking data is always in season.
Sorry, but belief systems are belief systems. And science is a belief system. Asking for "data" is asking for proof in one belief system that another is valid. It is similar to requesting that someone substantiate Buddism using nothing but the Catholic faith. There is a significant difference, recognized in science and math for that matter, in proving that something does exist versus proving that it doesn't. Discounting that (by implying that mysticism does not exist) means that you are accepting a belief which is outside that of your "religion" (science.) Which is certainly human but is most definitely not scientific. Finally you might note that you are ascribing a scientific explanation to all such appearances with in fact any evidence or even an attempt to collect such evidence. Again that is how other belief systems work and it is not how the idealistic version of science is supposed to work. It is in fact nothing but a "belief".
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Richie308 wrote:
Critics said that he simply had a muscle spasm. This is what I mean by preposterous. Anyone who has actually had a muscle spasm knows that it is possible to tell the difference between it and a push from an outside force.
That is assuming a lot. There are people that go to hospitals all the time claiming various aliments that not only are not supported by the actual evidence but in some cases are impossible. As one example people go to hospitals because they think that their heartburn is a heart attack. Even though I have never had heartburn nor a heart attack I would suppose that someone should, with experience, be able to tell the difference. I would suspect that some people can not tell the difference though and others, because like me, don't have the experience will not know the difference. So I certainly don't find it impossible that some people who have had a muscle spasm think that it was something else. And of course that discounts the more mundane explanations such as lying for various reasons.
jschell wrote:
So I certainly don't find it impossible that some people who have had a muscle spasm think that it was something else.
I agree that such a thing is not impossible. My point is that I believe because of the overall preponderance of evidence. The story I mention about that guy is but a spit in the ocean of evidence. And I don't buy into the notion that everyone who reports something unusual is just another P.T. Barnum.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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jschell wrote:
So I certainly don't find it impossible that some people who have had a muscle spasm think that it was something else.
I agree that such a thing is not impossible. My point is that I believe because of the overall preponderance of evidence. The story I mention about that guy is but a spit in the ocean of evidence. And I don't buy into the notion that everyone who reports something unusual is just another P.T. Barnum.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
My point is that I believe because of the overall preponderance of evidence. The story I mention about that guy is but a spit in the ocean of evidence.
As in scientific evidence? There is certainly no preponderance of evidence that has stood up to the scientific process. But perhaps you just mean ancedotal evidence based on what you have read/heard of accounts of such incidents.
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Richie308 wrote:
My point is that I believe because of the overall preponderance of evidence. The story I mention about that guy is but a spit in the ocean of evidence.
As in scientific evidence? There is certainly no preponderance of evidence that has stood up to the scientific process. But perhaps you just mean ancedotal evidence based on what you have read/heard of accounts of such incidents.
jschell wrote:
As in scientific evidence? There is certainly no preponderance of evidence that has stood up to the scientific process.
This goes back to my original post. Some really good evidence gets dismissed out of hand just because people are coming from the bias that it can't possibly be real, so it must be one of these other things. Case in point: Some unusual activity was happening at a construction site. People from the construction company set up a camera and video recorder to record overnight. The video showed a chair slide across a room entirely by itself, and it showed a large piece of drywall spontaneously break free from a wall and fly upward against gravity. Now it's easy to start saying, "Maybe this....or Maybe that..." but all of that speculation is not scientific either. Yes, it is hard to prove paranormal activity scientifically, but on the other hand, the excuses that people make to explain paranormal activity are often just as unsubstantiated as the activity itself.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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Christian Graus wrote:
I do believe the Bible, I regard the beliefs you're espousing to be a little bit of Bible and a lot of comic books.
I thought you were going to ask for instances in the Bible which you claim to believe. I do not have or read comic books, I wish I have the time anyway.
Christian Graus wrote:
books. I've been a Christian for a long time, and never met anyone who has had any dealings with 'evil spirits'.
:laugh::laugh::laugh: I was living in that deception too, remember as Jesus said not everyone saying Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I was borned into that deception, and you could imagine how long those who gave birth to me are in it, at least twice yours! If you leave in deception, that is the world of the devil, he already has you, and you will not crash with him. He is after those outside his world.
Christian Graus wrote:
It seems logical to me that if many people can be Christians without ever seeing evidence of them, while those who believe in such stuff see them frequently, or even from time to time, then this is evidence that the spirits exist only when they are part of the belief system of those 'encountering' them.
If I had your logical mind, I will not even believe someone calling himself Jesus Christ could be born to a virgin, or died and is risen. Sorry, I did not study that much logic. The Jesus you claim to believe cast out demons from people, or how did your pastor or logical mind interpret that?
Christian Graus wrote:
This would be one example of something I don't believe you can show from the Bible.
In order not to waste time on your believe, please let me know which you are having problem with; the right of the spirits or the existence of human agents?
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm at a loss how all of this gels with the idea that someone was murdered, and thus spirits were able to attack people who didn't want anything to do with them, until you attacked them with prayer ?
A crime was commited and it opened the channel for the devil to come and to preach its lies. It falls in the same master plan, he uses any means available, and to be plain your pastor/minister who is keeping you ignorant of the knowledge of God is in the same business. Best regards, Pau
Paul Selormey wrote:
I thought you were going to ask for instances in the Bible which you claim to believe
Well, had I not read it for myself, I probably would need to ask. I know where such things are mentioned in the Bible. I did actually remove a comment about one thing I thought was a good example of something you said that the Bible does not support, but I decided not to go that route. I still don't think the Bible supports any of this, however.
Paul Selormey wrote:
remember as Jesus said not everyone saying Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven
OK, so... I'm not a real Christian because I've not seen any evil spirits, is that your contention ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
If I had your logical mind, I will not even believe someone calling himself Jesus Christ could be born to a virgin, or died and is risen
OK, so you're a programmer, but logic is your enemy ? I guess this means you can't answer me ? Or did you answer me above ( anyone who hasn't seen demons is not a Christian ) ? There's a difference between having faith in something the Bible says, and something that you invent.
Paul Selormey wrote:
The Jesus you claim to believe cast out demons from people, or how did your pastor or logical mind interpret that?
Simple, I believe the Bible. I don't see any indication in the Bible that I'm expected to go around looking for demons, however.
Paul Selormey wrote:
the right of the spirits or the existence of human agents?
Oh, I did keep the bit about something that I feel is made up. I don't believe any of it - even the devil had no rights to attack Job, he had to ask for them. I sure don't believe there are humans who are agents of evil spirits, who have powers as a result of evil spirit actions.
Paul Selormey wrote:
A crime was commited and it opened the channel for the devil to come and to preach its lies.
So the devil can only lie when a crime is committed ? Please explain this.
Paul Selormey wrote:
and to be plain your pastor/minister who is keeping you ignorant of the knowledge of God is in the same business.
Ah, yes, my relationship with God is bankrupt, unless I al
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Paul Selormey wrote:
I thought you were going to ask for instances in the Bible which you claim to believe
Well, had I not read it for myself, I probably would need to ask. I know where such things are mentioned in the Bible. I did actually remove a comment about one thing I thought was a good example of something you said that the Bible does not support, but I decided not to go that route. I still don't think the Bible supports any of this, however.
Paul Selormey wrote:
remember as Jesus said not everyone saying Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven
OK, so... I'm not a real Christian because I've not seen any evil spirits, is that your contention ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
If I had your logical mind, I will not even believe someone calling himself Jesus Christ could be born to a virgin, or died and is risen
OK, so you're a programmer, but logic is your enemy ? I guess this means you can't answer me ? Or did you answer me above ( anyone who hasn't seen demons is not a Christian ) ? There's a difference between having faith in something the Bible says, and something that you invent.
Paul Selormey wrote:
The Jesus you claim to believe cast out demons from people, or how did your pastor or logical mind interpret that?
Simple, I believe the Bible. I don't see any indication in the Bible that I'm expected to go around looking for demons, however.
Paul Selormey wrote:
the right of the spirits or the existence of human agents?
Oh, I did keep the bit about something that I feel is made up. I don't believe any of it - even the devil had no rights to attack Job, he had to ask for them. I sure don't believe there are humans who are agents of evil spirits, who have powers as a result of evil spirit actions.
Paul Selormey wrote:
A crime was commited and it opened the channel for the devil to come and to preach its lies.
So the devil can only lie when a crime is committed ? Please explain this.
Paul Selormey wrote:
and to be plain your pastor/minister who is keeping you ignorant of the knowledge of God is in the same business.
Ah, yes, my relationship with God is bankrupt, unless I al
Mark 16: 17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Acts 16:16-18 Paul casts out spirit of divination from slave girl: The girl met Paul’s team as they went to prayer. The spirit harassed Paul for days. Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” The spirit came out that hour. Acts 19: 13-16 Jewish exorcists attempt deliverance without faith in Jesus: These exorcists were likely spiritists/conjurers who used spells & oaths to bind spirits. They invoked Jesus' name without believing in Jesus nor having a relationship with him. The demons recognized the exorcist's lack of authority, jumped on them and beat them up! From Ephesians:
- 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
- 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
- 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
- 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
- 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
- 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
- 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
- 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
- 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
As a Christian, how does verse 12 applies to you? Do you pray in the Spirit (verse 18)? If you are in true service of God, yes you will encounter them and will have to deal with them. It is just difficult to claim you are a true Christian but do not know spiritual warfare. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Mark 16: 17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Acts 16:16-18 Paul casts out spirit of divination from slave girl: The girl met Paul’s team as they went to prayer. The spirit harassed Paul for days. Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” The spirit came out that hour. Acts 19: 13-16 Jewish exorcists attempt deliverance without faith in Jesus: These exorcists were likely spiritists/conjurers who used spells & oaths to bind spirits. They invoked Jesus' name without believing in Jesus nor having a relationship with him. The demons recognized the exorcist's lack of authority, jumped on them and beat them up! From Ephesians:
- 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
- 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
- 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
- 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
- 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
- 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
- 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
- 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
- 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.
As a Christian, how does verse 12 applies to you? Do you pray in the Spirit (verse 18)? If you are in true service of God, yes you will encounter them and will have to deal with them. It is just difficult to claim you are a true Christian but do not know spiritual warfare. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Mark 16: 17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
It goes on to say they will drink poison and pick up snakes. Do you feel you need to do these things, in order to be saved ? Do you go out of your way to do them ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
These exorcists were likely spiritists/conjurers who used spells & oaths to bind spirits
This is the bit where you are making things up. I don't believe in 'spells and oaths'. The Bible talks about witch-craft, but if you look at the root word, it's about taking drugs.
Paul Selormey wrote:
As a Christian, how does verse 12 applies to you?
It's simply saying that the systems of this world are at emnity with God. It doesn't mean there are spooks under my bed.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you pray in the Spirit (verse 18)?
Yes, of course. How do you define 'prayer in the Spirit' ? I presume you have this right, actually, based on other verses you've quoted, but many do not.
Paul Selormey wrote:
If you are in true service of God, yes you will encounter them and will have to deal with them.
OK, so again, I am, by definition, not serving God, on the basis that I've not been dealing with enough evil ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
It is just difficult to claim you are a true Christian but do not know spiritual warfare.
I'm familiar with the term, and with the sort of talk that goes with it. I went to a number of churches who talked more about demons than about Jesus, in my youth. I still didn't see any. The biggest lie in all of this, is the idea that people can be possessed by devils, which implies that to not be possessed by them, is to be free of evil. You don't need to have a devil inside, causing you to take fits and froth at the mouth, in order to not be saved. BTW, no-one else is reading this, and I don't get email notifications, so I'm checking up by hand. Could you reply to my gmail address pls ? ( it's my name with a dot in the middle, at you know where )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to correspo
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Mark 16: 17 says "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"
It goes on to say they will drink poison and pick up snakes. Do you feel you need to do these things, in order to be saved ? Do you go out of your way to do them ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
These exorcists were likely spiritists/conjurers who used spells & oaths to bind spirits
This is the bit where you are making things up. I don't believe in 'spells and oaths'. The Bible talks about witch-craft, but if you look at the root word, it's about taking drugs.
Paul Selormey wrote:
As a Christian, how does verse 12 applies to you?
It's simply saying that the systems of this world are at emnity with God. It doesn't mean there are spooks under my bed.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you pray in the Spirit (verse 18)?
Yes, of course. How do you define 'prayer in the Spirit' ? I presume you have this right, actually, based on other verses you've quoted, but many do not.
Paul Selormey wrote:
If you are in true service of God, yes you will encounter them and will have to deal with them.
OK, so again, I am, by definition, not serving God, on the basis that I've not been dealing with enough evil ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
It is just difficult to claim you are a true Christian but do not know spiritual warfare.
I'm familiar with the term, and with the sort of talk that goes with it. I went to a number of churches who talked more about demons than about Jesus, in my youth. I still didn't see any. The biggest lie in all of this, is the idea that people can be possessed by devils, which implies that to not be possessed by them, is to be free of evil. You don't need to have a devil inside, causing you to take fits and froth at the mouth, in order to not be saved. BTW, no-one else is reading this, and I don't get email notifications, so I'm checking up by hand. Could you reply to my gmail address pls ? ( it's my name with a dot in the middle, at you know where )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to correspo
Christian Graus wrote:
BTW, no-one else is reading this, and I don't get email notifications, so I'm checking up by hand. Could you reply to my gmail address pls ?
I will find time after work to reply. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
