.NET "wish-list"
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Please excuse me if I sound like I've gone off the deep end with an anvil in my hands, But, How about documentation and examples that actually explain how to use the stuff - other than in a trivial manner. And include C++ examples when they're obviously different!* I shouldn't drink so much so early in the morning. * My two favorites: ExecuteScaler() in an example where they don't do anything with the return value, but why use the method if one doesn't use the return value, and, when incorporating the MS Word spell-checker into an app, in C++, I discover that the examples given don't include the fifteen (or so) 'Missing' objects that need to be added to the arg list - but only in C++, which, of course, had no example.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How about documentation and examples that actually explain how to use the stuff - other than in a trivial manner." Yes! This has been a problem with MS documentation for over a decade. MS "help" is often worthless. In the MFC days it was a nightmare; things that should have taken minutes to implement took days because the documentation was incomplete and inadequate. For .NET I wish there was a way to get the address of a variable in the debugger. It's as if with .NET MS thinks they're above such low-level details as addresses. This is essential for the Stake-Out debugging pattern: View a variable's contents through its address in the Watch window, so you can observe its value being trashed even when it's out of scope. Not possible in C# .NET as far as I know.
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Please excuse me if I sound like I've gone off the deep end with an anvil in my hands, But, How about documentation and examples that actually explain how to use the stuff - other than in a trivial manner. And include C++ examples when they're obviously different!* I shouldn't drink so much so early in the morning. * My two favorites: ExecuteScaler() in an example where they don't do anything with the return value, but why use the method if one doesn't use the return value, and, when incorporating the MS Word spell-checker into an app, in C++, I discover that the examples given don't include the fifteen (or so) 'Missing' objects that need to be added to the arg list - but only in C++, which, of course, had no example.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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taras_b wrote:
Actually I wouldn't mind to get access to the Vista "wish-list" too
Where to start? It's not just an elephant, it's an obese elephant for crying out loud... it has it's good points, don't get me wrong, but it leaves much to be desired from those Microsoft chimpanzees...
-Gatsby
Well ... at least with C# you can compile to native if you wish. This should be about the same performance. The real problem is your left chosing: 1) stay in the .Net framework and get the managed code goodies 2) go native and spend more time debugging/code becomes platform dependent (no mono for you :)) I'd like to see the .net framework be a module you could include in clean native code. You'd have to recompile on different environment, but the beauty would be this module could handle the platform specific/management parts. What you don't need doesn't create overhead, and the framework would be included as part of your distributable (probably as a registered dll so you wouldn't get a copy of the same thing for each program you install, but would have it if not installed already). Would be really pretty if you could run the framework as a forked process with shared memory, so you could offload the management overhead to a second core, for those with multicore systems.
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<wavy lines, blur to Microsoft Head Office> [Guy in suit, dark glasses, ear peice] A user is attempting to send a feature request. Allow or Deny? [Executives finger moves...hovers over a button...and...]
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
A user is attempting to send a feature request.
The three most dangerous things in the Universe: 3) A programmer with a screw-driver 2) An engineer with a software-patch 1) A user with an idea.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Well ... at least with C# you can compile to native if you wish. This should be about the same performance. The real problem is your left chosing: 1) stay in the .Net framework and get the managed code goodies 2) go native and spend more time debugging/code becomes platform dependent (no mono for you :)) I'd like to see the .net framework be a module you could include in clean native code. You'd have to recompile on different environment, but the beauty would be this module could handle the platform specific/management parts. What you don't need doesn't create overhead, and the framework would be included as part of your distributable (probably as a registered dll so you wouldn't get a copy of the same thing for each program you install, but would have it if not installed already). Would be really pretty if you could run the framework as a forked process with shared memory, so you could offload the management overhead to a second core, for those with multicore systems.
Too true, too true.
-Gatsby
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Hi guys, Are you aware of any official "wish-list" for .NET. We all may think of a few .NET features screaming to be implemented in the future releases. Is there any way to let MS to know what features programming community wants to see. Thanks. P.S. Actually I wouldn't mind to get access to the Vista "wish-list" too. :)
taras_b wrote:
Are you aware of any official "wish-list" for .NET.
I have to start with "what part of .NET"? Are we talking about the Framework, the languages, Visual Studio's built-in tools, Visual Studio itself, MS documentation? I can start with MS Framework documentation which (at the least) now has links between versions of libraries. Personally, I think that the .NET Framework has a very rich feature-set that suffers more from poor documentation than from lack of features. Ever tried to read the Framework Documentation on Threading? It's completely untenable, classes are inherited left and right but there is not clear line of how these relate. The same can be said for using a Timer. Need a timer? There are three of them: one for forms (System.Windows.Forms), one for threading (System.Threading), one for servers (System.Timers). Reading the documentation for the third will show you that they're all closely related, but if you look at the references, there is no link to a document of "when to use what", you have to search the Net for this kind of stuff. And I think that's fundamental problem with the MS docs. They print framework documentation in one place and then How-tos in a few different places: MSDN Magazine, Reprinted books available via MSDN. Have you ever scanned the TreeView on the left-hand side of the MSDN pages? It's huge, absolutely massive and it's incomplete! I've seen a few different bars based on where I've been in the site. The site is on information overload and as the Framework matures, this information is going to need better and better organization, I don't think they're "there" yet. As to new features, I've just started playing with LINQ and the EDM tool, so we're getting our fair share. From a tools perspective (VS and add-ons), I think that MS is pushing against a lot of barriers. The things that VS doesn't already do are already being done elsewhere and often for free. If you don't like VSS (and you don't have to), it's OK, there are freeware options. Need Testing frameworks, ORM tools, Auto-documentation (NDoc/Sandcastle?), all of this stuff is already available. So if I wanted something from my VS, it would be "automatic" integration with stuff like NUnit and CruiseControl.NET, along with provisions for better build and versioning tools. Of course, these tools already exist and they already integrate with the existing VS, so it's probably just better to leave them that way, b/c I don't trust MS not
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Hi guys, Are you aware of any official "wish-list" for .NET. We all may think of a few .NET features screaming to be implemented in the future releases. Is there any way to let MS to know what features programming community wants to see. Thanks. P.S. Actually I wouldn't mind to get access to the Vista "wish-list" too. :)
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Hi guys, Are you aware of any official "wish-list" for .NET. We all may think of a few .NET features screaming to be implemented in the future releases. Is there any way to let MS to know what features programming community wants to see. Thanks. P.S. Actually I wouldn't mind to get access to the Vista "wish-list" too. :)
Personally, I hate garbage collection. I want back to the good ole reference counting days.
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I think the closest thing to an official wish list is the connect.microsoft.com - VS section, and then the "suggestions" posted by various people (although I guess the bug reports count as well).
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Chris Maunder wrote:
A user is attempting to send a feature request.
The three most dangerous things in the Universe: 3) A programmer with a screw-driver 2) An engineer with a software-patch 1) A user with an idea.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
The three most dangerous things in the Universe: 3) A programmer with a screw-driver Hey! I resent that! :) Last week whilst our family was all sick and our washing machine broke down twice. First time the cold water solenoid failed. Since we've only ever used cold water, I changed the hose over to the hot tap and changed the wiring over from the cold water solenoid to the hot. Minimum $120 saved on call-out + new solenoid. My only tool was a philips-head screwdriver. Second time was after my son threw up all over me as he came down with the bug and the washing machine become clogged with, umm various offerings of sultanas, apples, etc :) This required complete disassembly to get to the gunk out. Once again all that was needed was philips-head screwdriver. Minimum $150 saved (2 hours work). So ner! ;-)
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The three most dangerous things in the Universe: 3) A programmer with a screw-driver Hey! I resent that! :) Last week whilst our family was all sick and our washing machine broke down twice. First time the cold water solenoid failed. Since we've only ever used cold water, I changed the hose over to the hot tap and changed the wiring over from the cold water solenoid to the hot. Minimum $120 saved on call-out + new solenoid. My only tool was a philips-head screwdriver. Second time was after my son threw up all over me as he came down with the bug and the washing machine become clogged with, umm various offerings of sultanas, apples, etc :) This required complete disassembly to get to the gunk out. Once again all that was needed was philips-head screwdriver. Minimum $150 saved (2 hours work). So ner! ;-)
si618 wrote:
So ner!
we're the exception, not the rule. ;P and actually, I used to not be the exception. My new wife is selling her house, I have taught her how to fix dry-wall properly (compared to her ex who supposedly "knew" how to do this -- splat goes the paste :rolleyes: ). I did all kinds of repairs I couldn't have even imagined when I started programming. I started at the litteral (not the joke) version of one of those dangers -- a really stereotypical "softy" software only person. But 20+ years later I have learned a few things. I can handle a screwdriver, battery powered, or manual, and handle it for a great many jobs. I can do minor electrical work, fix computers, build computers, as well as install software and write software. Times change, but it still makes a great joke. I have known engineers who are not a danger with a software patch, and I have repaired systems from those who are. The same can be said with the techs, they have repaired systems after a programmer tried to repair his own machine.... :doh: Some users have some good ideas too. Thus its stil just a joke. Its means more when you run into one of those dangerous people, and then, if it isn't you repairing the work done wrong, it is usually a funny joke. :-D Of course if you are repairing after them, the joke loses all the humor, and you are pounding your head against a wall asking the universe how someone could be that dim.... ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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si618 wrote:
So ner!
we're the exception, not the rule. ;P and actually, I used to not be the exception. My new wife is selling her house, I have taught her how to fix dry-wall properly (compared to her ex who supposedly "knew" how to do this -- splat goes the paste :rolleyes: ). I did all kinds of repairs I couldn't have even imagined when I started programming. I started at the litteral (not the joke) version of one of those dangers -- a really stereotypical "softy" software only person. But 20+ years later I have learned a few things. I can handle a screwdriver, battery powered, or manual, and handle it for a great many jobs. I can do minor electrical work, fix computers, build computers, as well as install software and write software. Times change, but it still makes a great joke. I have known engineers who are not a danger with a software patch, and I have repaired systems from those who are. The same can be said with the techs, they have repaired systems after a programmer tried to repair his own machine.... :doh: Some users have some good ideas too. Thus its stil just a joke. Its means more when you run into one of those dangerous people, and then, if it isn't you repairing the work done wrong, it is usually a funny joke. :-D Of course if you are repairing after them, the joke loses all the humor, and you are pounding your head against a wall asking the universe how someone could be that dim.... ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Absolutely, and one of my favorite quotes is "specialization is for insects".