Microsoft Vista.. really worth it?
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I was wondering when this news was going to arrive here. There was a discussion over at the Peanut Gallery[^] about this yesterday. Apparently it will cause a mass migration to Linux, and your Vista system will immediately become part of a global botnet. Or maybe your screen will go black, you call Microsoft, explain the problem and get back online within 5 minutes, no real harm done. Or even better, you actually purchased[^] a legitimate copy of Vista and this will be a complete non-event for you. Just think of all that software you bought over the Internet that came with a 14-day "trial" or a limited functionality version, which at this moment, still contains code to disable itself! OMG! Think of the children! Seriously people, buy the software and STFU. Now I'll just sit back and wait for the one votes and hate mail. :rolleyes:
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
Miszou wrote:
Seriously people, buy the software and STFU.
Mmmmm why should I have to STFU as you so intelligently put it if I did purchase the software and need it to work as expected?
Miszou wrote:
Or maybe your screen will go black, you call Microsoft, explain the problem and get back online within 5 minutes
You need to check your facts. When the WGA servers went down and put users into limited functionality mode it wasn't a five minute fix. And even if it was, who pays for my lost time?
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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WhiteSpy wrote:
We do not use cracked or pirate versions of software for any reason.
Cracked - yes. Pirated - no (since you own the license).
WhiteSpy wrote:
A better solution is to build a machine with a legit enterprise copy and use ghost to set up the other machines. We've done this at large schools and universities.
Yes, this is a better way around it.
WhiteSpy wrote:
Since we develop software, how can we legitmize pirating it? Sort of cuts across the grain doesn't it?
I don't think you fully understood my post if you think I am supporting piracy. I've deleted it to prevent more people from misinterpreting it.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't think you fully understood my post if you think I am supporting piracy. I've deleted it to prevent more people from misinterpreting it.
Nope didn't think that for a second. No one in their right mind would think that. I'm sure we all have someone we know of that got nailed by the BSA.
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Miszou wrote:
Seriously people, buy the software and STFU.
Mmmmm why should I have to STFU as you so intelligently put it if I did purchase the software and need it to work as expected?
Miszou wrote:
Or maybe your screen will go black, you call Microsoft, explain the problem and get back online within 5 minutes
You need to check your facts. When the WGA servers went down and put users into limited functionality mode it wasn't a five minute fix. And even if it was, who pays for my lost time?
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
why should I have to STFU as you so intelligently put it if I did purchase the software and need it to work as expected?
Hmm, well perhaps that was a little overboard. I think I'm still irritated after reading all the slashbot comments yesterday. :-O
Chris Austin wrote:
When the WGA servers went down and put users into limited functionality mode it wasn't a five minute fix. And even if it was, who pays for my lost time?
Well, we'd better all stop writing software then, just in case something doesn't work.
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
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Chris Austin wrote:
why should I have to STFU as you so intelligently put it if I did purchase the software and need it to work as expected?
Hmm, well perhaps that was a little overboard. I think I'm still irritated after reading all the slashbot comments yesterday. :-O
Chris Austin wrote:
When the WGA servers went down and put users into limited functionality mode it wasn't a five minute fix. And even if it was, who pays for my lost time?
Well, we'd better all stop writing software then, just in case something doesn't work.
Sunrise Wallpaper Project | The StartPage Randomizer | The Windows Cheerleader
Miszou wrote:
Well, we'd better all stop writing software then, just in case something doesn't work.
You are grossly oversimplifying the problem. It an OS and it should be the most robust software on your system. Or, we stop acting like rookies and deliver software that does work. The biggest issue that this industry has is the lack of respect for and knowledge of quality. No one is willing to raise the bar but, they are quite willing to move on to new projects and products regardless of the quality issues with existing ones. In short this industry needs to grow up and be held accountable.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Miszou wrote:
Well, we'd better all stop writing software then, just in case something doesn't work.
You are grossly oversimplifying the problem. It an OS and it should be the most robust software on your system. Or, we stop acting like rookies and deliver software that does work. The biggest issue that this industry has is the lack of respect for and knowledge of quality. No one is willing to raise the bar but, they are quite willing to move on to new projects and products regardless of the quality issues with existing ones. In short this industry needs to grow up and be held accountable.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
here here.. Well said. But I don't think that Quality of product is as much of a problem at MS as Quality of Service. Another problem with this "your bogus and we're killing your software" is that (forgive me if I'm wrong) MS doesn't do much of its own tech support anymore. They seem to farm it out to the "If it isn't on the list I can't answer your question" sub contractors. Take the Game division (xbox,xbox360 and XboxLive) for example. I know for a fact that the only section of tech that is in the us is in Texas and run by another firm. Sort of says a lot about were the jobs are going, eh?
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I agree with you that it was just a screw up. It did take 3 days to fix, but still just human error. That is not my issue here. My issues is that I think that at least in the case of mission critical machines (military/ medical/ emergency) microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process. For the rest of us its lost revenue and that is a pain in the butt and its not fair. But I can forgive that. I just think that the trend is that they are taking it further and further and I'm curious as to when they will say "Hey you know maybe we've gone to far here!"
WhiteSpy wrote:
microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process.
how? Just about anything can happen with software, and the least dangerous thing is loss of the computer. Kilometers can be substituted as miles, or vice versa and result in crashes, lost lives, or equipment. The possibilities are endless. With near infinite possibilities of points of failures and near infinite "risky situations" that the software could fail during, the risks are, pretty near infinite. That is why there is risk analysis, there is no category for "no risk" there is no such thing. There is "low risk" having a computer turned on falls into this category, using it still falls in this category. Driving, depending on the situation, often goes to medium risk. Do we replace cars because of the danger to human lives? not likely. We just attempt to mitigate risk through reducing risky behaviors. Back to computers, you do NOT update a computer prior to field use. You run extensive testing, field operations with similar situations (obviously you cannot check all variables), and get in as much "practice" to test the equipment in expected field environments. But "expected" is a key word. If we could predict the future, there would be no need for fixes, we'd know them all before they were broken and fix them up front. In not knowing the future, we take a risk every day just waking up (or a risk going to sleep in case we don't wake again). You cannot remove risk, you reduce it through checks and balances, and redundant operations and spares.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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WhiteSpy wrote:
microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process.
how? Just about anything can happen with software, and the least dangerous thing is loss of the computer. Kilometers can be substituted as miles, or vice versa and result in crashes, lost lives, or equipment. The possibilities are endless. With near infinite possibilities of points of failures and near infinite "risky situations" that the software could fail during, the risks are, pretty near infinite. That is why there is risk analysis, there is no category for "no risk" there is no such thing. There is "low risk" having a computer turned on falls into this category, using it still falls in this category. Driving, depending on the situation, often goes to medium risk. Do we replace cars because of the danger to human lives? not likely. We just attempt to mitigate risk through reducing risky behaviors. Back to computers, you do NOT update a computer prior to field use. You run extensive testing, field operations with similar situations (obviously you cannot check all variables), and get in as much "practice" to test the equipment in expected field environments. But "expected" is a key word. If we could predict the future, there would be no need for fixes, we'd know them all before they were broken and fix them up front. In not knowing the future, we take a risk every day just waking up (or a risk going to sleep in case we don't wake again). You cannot remove risk, you reduce it through checks and balances, and redundant operations and spares.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Take it easy.. untwist your knickers.. Sorry didn't make myself understood.. Microsoft should make sure that those systems have a different version or method that can be used to stop them from being shut down by the anti-piracy routines running on the microsoft genuine software servers. I didn't say that there wasn't risk. just that they should make sure that this is not the cause of it.
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Take it easy.. untwist your knickers.. Sorry didn't make myself understood.. Microsoft should make sure that those systems have a different version or method that can be used to stop them from being shut down by the anti-piracy routines running on the microsoft genuine software servers. I didn't say that there wasn't risk. just that they should make sure that this is not the cause of it.
WhiteSpy wrote:
just that they should make sure that this is not the cause of it.
and they shouldn't have this bug, or that bug, or any bug. I am quite familiare with the logic. In hindsight it is easy to say, well, they should have done this. and I am sure they have a bit of a thorn in the side from their vision in hindsight as well. Hindsight may be 20/20, but you still forget that you didn't see that before hand. :) You live, you learn, bug them if they don't fix it, but trying to predict and prevent failure is a difficult task. All of us take the wrong method on occasion, it is why refactoring came into existance. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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WhiteSpy wrote:
just that they should make sure that this is not the cause of it.
and they shouldn't have this bug, or that bug, or any bug. I am quite familiare with the logic. In hindsight it is easy to say, well, they should have done this. and I am sure they have a bit of a thorn in the side from their vision in hindsight as well. Hindsight may be 20/20, but you still forget that you didn't see that before hand. :) You live, you learn, bug them if they don't fix it, but trying to predict and prevent failure is a difficult task. All of us take the wrong method on occasion, it is why refactoring came into existance. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I agree with you on that, but what does that have to do with premise that some systems should not be subject to this process? In case you forgot we were talking about the genuine software verification process being a problem for legitimate copies. And as far as testing goes I think they probably have the best or at least can afford to have the best. I wonder how many times a linux box has been down due to having its copy de-legitamized... oh thats right they don't do that. I'm just kidding.. I don't even own a copy of linux. But I love a good argement that brings problems to the surface and helps bring attention to a shared passion.:-D
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I agree with you that it was just a screw up. It did take 3 days to fix, but still just human error. That is not my issue here. My issues is that I think that at least in the case of mission critical machines (military/ medical/ emergency) microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process. For the rest of us its lost revenue and that is a pain in the butt and its not fair. But I can forgive that. I just think that the trend is that they are taking it further and further and I'm curious as to when they will say "Hey you know maybe we've gone to far here!"
WhiteSpy wrote:
My issues is that I think that at least in the case of mission critical machines (military/ medical/ emergency) microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process.
For military boxes they'll have to go a step farther. Anything on a classified network WILL NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS, so they'll have to provide a way to support non networked machines or the DoD will not be able to update past XP.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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I agree with you on that, but what does that have to do with premise that some systems should not be subject to this process? In case you forgot we were talking about the genuine software verification process being a problem for legitimate copies. And as far as testing goes I think they probably have the best or at least can afford to have the best. I wonder how many times a linux box has been down due to having its copy de-legitamized... oh thats right they don't do that. I'm just kidding.. I don't even own a copy of linux. But I love a good argement that brings problems to the surface and helps bring attention to a shared passion.:-D
WhiteSpy wrote:
I agree with you on that, but what does that have to do with premise that some systems should not be subject to this process? In case you forgot we were talking about the genuine software verification process being a problem for legitimate copies.
but you are setting situations that have already been handled. Medical hardware may be monitored by windows, linux or other PCs, but they are not operated by. This is where you have custom programmed boxes, embedded controllers, or even Windows CE as an embedded OS (though that scares me at times). Gone are the days that I need to write my own embedded controller, I hope, but I've done it... for military and medical uses. So you are inventing a problem to prove your argument. There will be a custom version for the military to run on darknets, I am sure. But until that happens, the military will not allow Vista. And the military may never allow Vista, not due to the holes (once those are fixed it could be used), but because of lack of holes. Some things are not allowed to be kept from some people, MS made no exceptions for "you are allowed to see this traffic" and a few people have not apprecated that. So again, a non-problem. As far as the linux issue, as joking as you were. I hear it regularly. We shouldn't use Vista or XP because they are not as stable as Linux, in the next breath he will tell me how he can't finish a compile because the computer resets at least 3-6 times a day, and he traced it back to one of the 400+ outstanding bugs in the kernel (the kernel mind you, nothing else). Yup, go linux stability! :rolleyes: I think by that measure, Vista is doing pretty darn good! each side picks and chooses the arguments to make themselves and their argument look right, and ignore evidence to the contrary. Or you set up a fictional scenario that hasn't happened to prove that you are right. In the end it is all just opinion. My opinion, and that is all it is complete with appropriate face value, is we are going through the same growth pains of XP. Service Pack 2 actually locked up and corrupted many machines, but anyone usng XP now has forgotten that little incident and continues to say XP is the best. It just "is," so is Linux, so is Vista. There is no best, or worst, there is best for your work, best for my work, best for your customer's work, and all those change over time. Time is another issue, because looking forward, I don't see XP. Vista may not be around, and Linux "may" be
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[Message Deleted]
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WhiteSpy wrote:
I agree with you on that, but what does that have to do with premise that some systems should not be subject to this process? In case you forgot we were talking about the genuine software verification process being a problem for legitimate copies.
but you are setting situations that have already been handled. Medical hardware may be monitored by windows, linux or other PCs, but they are not operated by. This is where you have custom programmed boxes, embedded controllers, or even Windows CE as an embedded OS (though that scares me at times). Gone are the days that I need to write my own embedded controller, I hope, but I've done it... for military and medical uses. So you are inventing a problem to prove your argument. There will be a custom version for the military to run on darknets, I am sure. But until that happens, the military will not allow Vista. And the military may never allow Vista, not due to the holes (once those are fixed it could be used), but because of lack of holes. Some things are not allowed to be kept from some people, MS made no exceptions for "you are allowed to see this traffic" and a few people have not apprecated that. So again, a non-problem. As far as the linux issue, as joking as you were. I hear it regularly. We shouldn't use Vista or XP because they are not as stable as Linux, in the next breath he will tell me how he can't finish a compile because the computer resets at least 3-6 times a day, and he traced it back to one of the 400+ outstanding bugs in the kernel (the kernel mind you, nothing else). Yup, go linux stability! :rolleyes: I think by that measure, Vista is doing pretty darn good! each side picks and chooses the arguments to make themselves and their argument look right, and ignore evidence to the contrary. Or you set up a fictional scenario that hasn't happened to prove that you are right. In the end it is all just opinion. My opinion, and that is all it is complete with appropriate face value, is we are going through the same growth pains of XP. Service Pack 2 actually locked up and corrupted many machines, but anyone usng XP now has forgotten that little incident and continues to say XP is the best. It just "is," so is Linux, so is Vista. There is no best, or worst, there is best for your work, best for my work, best for your customer's work, and all those change over time. Time is another issue, because looking forward, I don't see XP. Vista may not be around, and Linux "may" be
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Here we have another indication that Microsoft is more worried about lost revenue than customer service. I don't believe we'll be doing a switch to vista on the bulk of our machines here. We will have to have a copy or two for development and testing but this is really begining to get on my wick! First they develop WGA, which by the way worried us to death installing it's self over and over and over and... you get it. Then their bloody server had a problem and invalidated legitimate customers. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9032798 Now we have a new problem to worry about. Come in a your screen goes black. Then you have to figure out that MS killed your copy. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&articleId=9035478 I see a real danger here that they will progress this to the point that they just format the harddrive for you. And all because of a screw up on their part. Am I alone here or is anyone else feeling my pain?
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WhiteSpy wrote:
My issues is that I think that at least in the case of mission critical machines (military/ medical/ emergency) microsoft should make some method that they can not be shut down accidentally by this process.
For military boxes they'll have to go a step farther. Anything on a classified network WILL NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS, so they'll have to provide a way to support non networked machines or the DoD will not be able to update past XP.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
dan neely wrote:
For military boxes they'll have to go a step farther. Anything on a classified network WILL NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS, so they'll have to provide a way to support non networked machines or the DoD will not be able to update past XP.
You know I knew that from working with the 101st. But Back then we still installed the latest Windows OS and left it to the Army. But this was back on Windows NT 4.
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WOW... Thanks Steve. Now this is what networking is about. Rumor.. in the news. Anger in the masses.. Then denial by the suspect.. then a sea of calm. Hey, is that a shark under there?:) I hope this is correct. Maybe MS let this leak to see if anyone would get pissed. Ding, Ding, Ding.. Tell them what they didn't win Johnny!:laugh:
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dan neely wrote:
For military boxes they'll have to go a step farther. Anything on a classified network WILL NOT HAVE INTERNET ACCESS, so they'll have to provide a way to support non networked machines or the DoD will not be able to update past XP.
You know I knew that from working with the 101st. But Back then we still installed the latest Windows OS and left it to the Army. But this was back on Windows NT 4.
WhiteSpy wrote:
But Back then we still installed the latest Windows OS and left it to the Army
Now there are check lists, and approved disks, and validations, and inspections, and manditory reformatting and reinstallation under certain conditions. Ghost images of working systems, etc. The OS is a part, you use the approved part on the approved equipment, at the approved time, by the approved person. And even he gets checked by an approved inspector. etc.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Point taken. But without the sqeaky wheels like us they would never apply the grease needed to make it all run smoothly. :laugh:
WhiteSpy wrote:
But without the sqeaky wheels like us they would never apply the grease needed to make it all run smoothly.
laugh and joke with your friends here, but the squeaking works best if you aim it at the drivers. :-D I have managed to help (help mind you) nudge a few businesses. Of course one of those won't invite me back since I led a revolution of their customers. They ended up changing, but they don't invite the squeaky wheel back. Hey, their loss, I gave them lots of free advice and ideas in each of my trips to visit. Cutting contact with the squeaky wheel hurts both sides. :) Microsoft can be pushed, within limits, to do something. They have attempted to kill OpenGL several times, Vista was the latest. They backed off. In fact some the issues with Vista can be traced to that decision to allow OpenGL into the system. And any of the problems traced to that, could be, in part, blamed on me. I played a single role, though I pushed with all the weight of every contract I worked on and every customer I supported, medical, military, and others. I made myself look a little more imposing than I should of, but it wasn't just me, it was the number, and the combined weight. MS changed, Vista changed, the hardware vendors changed. It can be done, but no one from MS lives in the lounge currently :suss: or do they.....
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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WOW... Thanks Steve. Now this is what networking is about. Rumor.. in the news. Anger in the masses.. Then denial by the suspect.. then a sea of calm. Hey, is that a shark under there?:) I hope this is correct. Maybe MS let this leak to see if anyone would get pissed. Ding, Ding, Ding.. Tell them what they didn't win Johnny!:laugh:
WhiteSpy wrote:
Hey, is that a shark under there?
[Scene: A New York apartment. Someone knocks on the door.] Woman: [not opening the door] Yes? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs. Arlsburgerhhh? Woman: What? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs. Johannesburrrr? Woman: Who is it? Voice: [pause] Flowers. Woman: Flowers for whom? Voice: [long pause] Plumber, ma'am. Woman: I don't need a plumber. You're that clever shark, aren't you? Voice: [pause] Candygram. Woman: Candygram, my foot. Get out of here before I call the police. You're the shark, and you know it. Voice: I'm only a dolphin, ma'am. Woman: A dolphin? Well...okay. [opens door]
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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WhiteSpy wrote:
Hey, is that a shark under there?
[Scene: A New York apartment. Someone knocks on the door.] Woman: [not opening the door] Yes? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs. Arlsburgerhhh? Woman: What? Voice: (mumbling) Mrs. Johannesburrrr? Woman: Who is it? Voice: [pause] Flowers. Woman: Flowers for whom? Voice: [long pause] Plumber, ma'am. Woman: I don't need a plumber. You're that clever shark, aren't you? Voice: [pause] Candygram. Woman: Candygram, my foot. Get out of here before I call the police. You're the shark, and you know it. Voice: I'm only a dolphin, ma'am. Woman: A dolphin? Well...okay. [opens door]
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)