Am I a bad programmer?
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this.drink(beer) wrote:
Its the same thing
Excuse me for interrupting, I just feel like two cents for bringing this up, but.... That should be "it's," the contraction of it is. "Its" is the possessive. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! ;) BDF
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
Well of course all the documentation you need can be implied in the unit tests. hahaha
MrPlankton
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
Yes/No. Depends if managment is aware of condition of product. If they don't you will be percieved as "bad", your future is in question. If they do they will cut you some slack, but you will spend all your time becomming familiar with the product and perhaps not enough in keeping your skill set up to date, your future is in question.
MrPlankton
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I live on the West Coast man, we don't speak like that around here, you're thinking of the east coast.
Never trust machinery more complicated than a knife and fork. - Jubal Harshaw in Stranger in a Strange Land
Ok, you guys have gone incredibly off topic and are incredibly pedantic. I've seen more nitpicking in here than in a buffet restaurant! As long as you understand it there shouldn't be any problem. I think everyone here needs to relax a bit. Not everyone was meant to be perfect. In Similar regards to the topic at hand, clearly you are trying to enforce good practices with everyone. But everyone believes that as long as they and others can understand 'their' code then its all fine. Putting forth good practice in programming is good, no, in fact its the best thing to do. I for one always look to the correct solutions to doing things. But one has to ask himself when to stop at doing everything the right way. People who are unaware of this concept usually opt for the cheaper way out of things, or it might simply be because they don't know how to correctly address the problem in the best way. In all, don't be discouraged by the lack of commented code and the amount of crap thats in there. Just do what you have to do, do it right and then get out of there. May I recommend you try finding another job elsewhere where they actually don't give you so much crap? =P
I like to make it apparent when I'm running out of ideas... ... ... ...
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Ok, you guys have gone incredibly off topic and are incredibly pedantic. I've seen more nitpicking in here than in a buffet restaurant! As long as you understand it there shouldn't be any problem. I think everyone here needs to relax a bit. Not everyone was meant to be perfect. In Similar regards to the topic at hand, clearly you are trying to enforce good practices with everyone. But everyone believes that as long as they and others can understand 'their' code then its all fine. Putting forth good practice in programming is good, no, in fact its the best thing to do. I for one always look to the correct solutions to doing things. But one has to ask himself when to stop at doing everything the right way. People who are unaware of this concept usually opt for the cheaper way out of things, or it might simply be because they don't know how to correctly address the problem in the best way. In all, don't be discouraged by the lack of commented code and the amount of crap thats in there. Just do what you have to do, do it right and then get out of there. May I recommend you try finding another job elsewhere where they actually don't give you so much crap? =P
I like to make it apparent when I'm running out of ideas... ... ... ...
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
You are not a "bad" programmer - not based on what you have said, anyway. I've been there, man - It sucks. I found it painful at best, and spent most of my time behind schedule because I never could remember to build in a day or two for dealing with (what I call) "The Stupid", and (after failng to lobby for meaningful change) I eventually just left for greener pastures. You have to be diligent, while you're where you are, to not let the bad habits and poor planning of your fellows undo your own talents. Keep up the skills they refuse to use and put them to work for you (if they wont let you put it to work for them) and use it to get a position at a more sensible company. There ARE sensible companies out here. :suss: JB
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Documentation? OOD? Ha! I have been programming C++ for 15 years and the only thing that counts in any company is how long you take to complete the task. Time is money.
I love short-sighted people.... They're easy to rob. :suss: JB
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I fail to see what cows have to do this topic.... :suss: JB
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I love short-sighted people.... They're easy to rob. :suss: JB
VanityClaw wrote:
short-sighted
The poor guy's been doing C++ for 15 years. It's a wonder he's not blind! BDF
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VanityClaw wrote:
short-sighted
The poor guy's been doing C++ for 15 years. It's a wonder he's not blind! BDF
Yeah... And I can think of more useful things that (reportedly) have a similar side-effect. :suss: JB
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Even so, I thought the apostrophe remained - but am prepared to stand corrected if you know better...
It's with the apostrophe in it. You are correct.
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It's with the apostrophe in it. You are correct.
Yeah, I know (ssh!) - I am old enough and fortunate enough to have benefitted from a classical education - when Britain still had an education system to be proud of... nowadays we have to rely on the likes of French Canadians of Russian descent (?) to teach us our own language... cheers / za vas Fred
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
No, not necessarily. It sounds like you're relatively new, and haven't had the idealism of youth beaten out of you yet. ;-) The reason that the guys around you are faster is that they have developed a more complete understanding of the code, based purely on accumulated experience, (and the fact that they probably wrote it.) If you want to change things around there, as the new member of the team, you won't have a lot of credibility if you *tell* your colleagues. You need to *show* them. This probably means that you will have to work five times harder than everyone else. Do you have the conviction in your beliefs to do that? If not, then it might be time to start looking for jobs where your beliefs are more congruent with the views of the existing staff. Good luck. PS. You can never insult your former colleagues if you do move on. Make an excuse that sounds plausible when you resign.
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
Eish! I feel the same. I am from the old school, and yes documentation is "NOT for REAL developers". Someone else has to reverse engineer the systems and try to figure out the inner workings - but still no documentation. Unfortunately I must say this is part of life (for developers only - or shall we call them coders instead?). I am in the same predicament, the only one learning from the net (and mostly from www.codeproject.com), reading books, white papers or anything else that may help me in my work. Yesterday was such an example - our company are busy moving from VB6 to C#, I am there for quite a while, and the company already spent thousands of $$ on getting a consulting company to "show us the right way", which was a ball's up in any case, and now they want to use another consulting company, just because they are too lazy to read... I overheard the conversation between two of my colleagues " we need to get them here (consulting company) soon, because I do not know how to do it and need them to show me..." The question actually was, "How do I launch an EXE from C#?" What a shame, that the person in question is in the industry for about 15 years, too lazy to do research because he "does not have time to read...” His documentation is one to two paragraphs long. The refuse to use a framework for systems development - the end result - no documentation. You are actually an excellent developer.... The confused are confused beyond confusion.
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Yeah, I know (ssh!) - I am old enough and fortunate enough to have benefitted from a classical education - when Britain still had an education system to be proud of... nowadays we have to rely on the likes of French Canadians of Russian descent (?) to teach us our own language... cheers / za vas Fred
My education was fine and I only finished university a few years ago! :) Don't buy into the media's perception of our education!! To the original poster - you're fine, and so are they. You just both enjoy different styles, if it works for the company and not for yourself then maybe you should think of joining a company that is a little more structured. If the system is obviously weak because of the coding, then you should speak up and change things.
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John Cardinal wrote:
Achilles heel
:-) strictly speaking, of course, there should be an apostrophe in there: Achilles' heel :-)
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Actually, according to the last example of Rule 2 at http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp[^] , because the name is singular (even though it ends with s), the correct version is "Achilles's".
What do Americans know about English? Bah, I say... I defy you to find ONE example in *Englsih* literature anywhere that uses that abomination! "Achilles's" indeed. :rolleyes: :^)
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What do Americans know about English? Bah, I say... I defy you to find ONE example in *Englsih* literature anywhere that uses that abomination! "Achilles's" indeed. :rolleyes: :^)
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It's in our genes... we only spell things the way we do to annoy and confuse the French!
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So, the company I work for is pretty small, only about 8 developers. The biggest (web) app is very complicated and is chalk full of errors. To compound the issue, there is absolutly ZERO documentation in the code / database. The DB also has no Foriegn Key contraints and is only marginally normalized. I don't work on the app that much, so I'm not as familiar as everyone else is with it. Whenever a problem comes up, they can jump right to the problem, but it sometimes takes me hours.... The question is "Am I a bad programmer, or are they?" Most of us were drilled with the "document your code" as we were learning either by instructors or books, but no one here does that (except me).:mad: As far as new development goes, IMHO I think I am *better* because I grasp the concepts of normalization, documentation, OOD. All new concepts to them. I had to explain normalization and pursuede them to let me do it on some new tables I added!:mad: And this is no hole-in-the-wall company either, they have some BIG clients. Well, thanks for letting me beef!
Bad Programmer! BAAAAD Programmer (I say as I smack you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper)! Now go outside and don't come back in until you are paper-trained. :)
m.bergman
-- For Bruce Schneier, quanta only have one state : afraid.