The soul and drugs
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Al Beback wrote:
You say you're an atheist, which implies that you don't believe in the soul.
Is that necessarily true? Atheism is not believing in God. Does atheism imply not believing in souls automatically?
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Is that necessarily true? Atheism is not believing in God. Does atheism imply not believing in souls automatically?
I would say so. I've always understood soul as a spirit that currently inhabits our body, but will transcend our death. To most atheists, nothing comes after death, so there's nothing to transcend it.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Is that necessarily true? Atheism is not believing in God. Does atheism imply not believing in souls automatically?
I would say so. I've always understood soul as a spirit that currently inhabits our body, but will transcend our death. To most atheists, nothing comes after death, so there's nothing to transcend it.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Roger J wrote:
I think my "soul" is the result of the processes in my brain. I guess its just a matter of definition, you might call it consiousness only. for me, thats the soul..
Then refer to it as consciousness or self awareness and quit using "soul" which implies all kinds of religious mumbo jumbo. :sigh:
Save an endangered species. The American Engineer.
Tim Craig wrote:
Then refer to it as consciousness or self awareness and quit using "soul" which implies all kinds of religious mumbo jumbo.
A bit authoritarian there... do you support freedom of speech?
This statement was never false.
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The soul was invented by a french philosopher ( I forget which one, but as everyone knows the french do nothing but sit around drinking wine and talking crap all day it could have been any one of them ) Anwya this French bods argument goes something along the lines of man must have a soul or he would not get into heaven when he died and every dumbass knows that animals don't go to heaven therefore man has a soul and animals dont therefore man owns all the animals. Or in Red Dwarf terminology "Where would all the toasters go?" Actually the above mixes Decartes thoughts on the mind with the soul but then without the mind what would the soul be? -- modified at 13:15 Tuesday 18th September, 2007
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Actually soul appears in the old testament. Its a translation, but the concept didn't originate with the French Philosopher. Let’s begin with the Bible’s explanation of the "soul." The usual word for "soul" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word transliterated by the letters nephesh or nepes. We will use nephesh. This word occurs over 750 times in the Old Testament. We find one example in Genesis 2:7: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]" (King James Version). The New International Version says "man became a living being."
This statement was never false.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I disagree with that. I believe in God, but not in life after death.
Interesting. Please tell me about the God you believe in. What's he/she like? Also, why don't you believe in the afterlife? That's probably the number one reason people believe in God. Heck, even I wish there was an afterlife. The concept of eternal bliss sounds great, especially since life is so sh*tty for so many people in our planet.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I disagree with that. I believe in God, but not in life after death.
Interesting. Please tell me about the God you believe in. What's he/she like? Also, why don't you believe in the afterlife? That's probably the number one reason people believe in God. Heck, even I wish there was an afterlife. The concept of eternal bliss sounds great, especially since life is so sh*tty for so many people in our planet.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
Al Beback wrote:
Interesting. Please tell me about the God you believe in. What's he/she like?
Do you have a definite answer? God is God.
Al Beback wrote:
Also, why don't you believe in the afterlife?
Let me think. Why would I believe in an afterlife that would last infinitely long? Why aren't we immortal here? If afterlife doesn't last infinitely long, then we do die eventually. It just means we have a few tries to get it right. Which by the way is really what the Druze (my official religion) believe in. I just don't believe in it myself. When you die, you die. It allows for people to be more responsible in this lifetime.
Al Beback wrote:
That's probably the number one reason people believe in God.
Or believe in their interpretation/understanding of God.
Al Beback wrote:
Heck, even I wish there was an afterlife. The concept of eternal bliss sounds great, especially since life is so sh*tty for so many people in our planet.
Go back to my second paragraph. Again, I believe God created us, life, the universe. What God is or believing in heaven, hell, or the soul is all hearsay.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
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Al Beback wrote:
Interesting. Please tell me about the God you believe in. What's he/she like?
Do you have a definite answer? God is God.
Al Beback wrote:
Also, why don't you believe in the afterlife?
Let me think. Why would I believe in an afterlife that would last infinitely long? Why aren't we immortal here? If afterlife doesn't last infinitely long, then we do die eventually. It just means we have a few tries to get it right. Which by the way is really what the Druze (my official religion) believe in. I just don't believe in it myself. When you die, you die. It allows for people to be more responsible in this lifetime.
Al Beback wrote:
That's probably the number one reason people believe in God.
Or believe in their interpretation/understanding of God.
Al Beback wrote:
Heck, even I wish there was an afterlife. The concept of eternal bliss sounds great, especially since life is so sh*tty for so many people in our planet.
Go back to my second paragraph. Again, I believe God created us, life, the universe. What God is or believing in heaven, hell, or the soul is all hearsay.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw Web - Blog - RSS - Math - LinkedIn - BM
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
God is God.
I asked because God takes on different "shapes", depending on who you ask. To some he's just the originator of the universe -- no further involvement. While to others he's omnipresent -- involved in every aspect of our daily lives. That's why they pray to him. Others believe he's perfect and omnipotent, which is paradoxical[^].
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
When you die, you die. It allows for people to be more responsible in this lifetime.
And to value life more. I wish everyone saw it that way.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Again, I believe God created us, life, the universe.
So then why is there so much suffering? Why can one child be born in a stable loving home, while hundreds are born in disease-ridden filth?
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
God is God.
I asked because God takes on different "shapes", depending on who you ask. To some he's just the originator of the universe -- no further involvement. While to others he's omnipresent -- involved in every aspect of our daily lives. That's why they pray to him. Others believe he's perfect and omnipotent, which is paradoxical[^].
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
When you die, you die. It allows for people to be more responsible in this lifetime.
And to value life more. I wish everyone saw it that way.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Again, I believe God created us, life, the universe.
So then why is there so much suffering? Why can one child be born in a stable loving home, while hundreds are born in disease-ridden filth?
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
I believe he's just the originator who only helps when needed. If so,then there's no paradox. Bad is what we cause to happen. He's beyond good and bad. You also said before that you wish there was an afterlife, which makes me wonder if it was a slip up or you're not sure of a soul. Suffering is man's work. If life was perfect, why would we need to live?
There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals. Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Tim Craig wrote:
Then refer to it as consciousness or self awareness and quit using "soul" which implies all kinds of religious mumbo jumbo.
A bit authoritarian there... do you support freedom of speech?
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
A bit authoritarian there...
Because I didn't say please? :rolleyes:
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
do you support freedom of speech?
As a matter of fact, I do. But I also expect people to express what they're trying to say in proper terms if they expect a reasonable answer. Of course, you're free to babble on as you usually do. -- modified at 12:44 Wednesday 19th September, 2007
Save an endangered species. The American Engineer.
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Think of it in terms of capacity and wavelengths. Physical vibrations are slow. Spiritual vibrations are fast. Hyper even. A soul is the developing construct to house the personality as it increases its capacity for faster vibrations as a balance of awareness and consciousness. Energy doesn't die. Your energy needs to be elevated though, sped up if you will, to increased capacities to endure a higher (faster vibration) form of experience. You are competing with entropy and the forces of that would slow your vibrations to that below the physical.
This statement was never false.
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Ive tried to post this question on a swedish forum, with little success. So here I go again. Im an atheist and I want to know what religious people think of this: If I consume alcohol or drugs, my "soul" gets affected , and my personallity and ability to make decisions may be altered. So if the "soul" is some sort of magical/spiritual entity that is hosted in the body, how come it can be affected by the materia that you consume (the drug) ? This is not ment to provoke or anything, I just want to see if those who beleive in some sort of god/whatever have any explanation why materia can alter the soul
Roger J wrote:
If I consume alcohol or drugs, my "soul" gets affected
No, I would totally disagree with that. Your mental state is affected, because your brain chemistry is messed with. This does not track directly to your soul being affected.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Actually soul appears in the old testament. Its a translation, but the concept didn't originate with the French Philosopher. Let’s begin with the Bible’s explanation of the "soul." The usual word for "soul" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word transliterated by the letters nephesh or nepes. We will use nephesh. This word occurs over 750 times in the Old Testament. We find one example in Genesis 2:7: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]" (King James Version). The New International Version says "man became a living being."
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Actually soul appears in the old testament. Its a translation, but the concept didn't originate with the French Philosopher.
So your saying that it was invented a few hundred years before the French dude by some drug fucked monkey working on some piece of fiction that made it's way into the old testament.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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fat_boy wrote:
The mind might be effected by drugs
:laugh::laugh:
Yeah yeah. Nothing like a foreigner to be an English language pedant. You shoulud nkow that English is in fact a bastardised, gutter, scum language, almost totally devoid of any structure and suitable for only the lowest form of discussion. Thats why Newton released Principia in Latin, and why Shakespeare never wrote down his plays. They didnt repect the language.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Ok I still do not understand :-P What is associated with the soul? is it just the "life force"? , so when the body dies, the ego dies to, and all memmories and knowledge is lost? Im apparently completely ignorant in this area, just see the above threads where people mock me :)
Ok... I said I would get back to you. The soul is an immortal attribute given by God to people; while we don't know exactly when it is given, my belief is that it is given at the moment of conception - when life begins. The soul is not a 'life force' or 'mystical/magical entity'; it is the enbodiment of who God sees you as. The soul will exist after the body perishes; where you (your soul) spends eternity depends on life choices made. And that is another question entirely. Tim
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Actually soul appears in the old testament. Its a translation, but the concept didn't originate with the French Philosopher.
So your saying that it was invented a few hundred years before the French dude by some drug fucked monkey working on some piece of fiction that made it's way into the old testament.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
The Old Testament wasn't written by usual people but by inspired by God prophets. Without this said talking about the Bible has no sense. IMHO everything in this thread is about terminology, which is least important thing in faith. The most important is a good, free of sins life, which applies to a believer as well as to an atheist. Roger K wrote: "So if the "soul" is some sort of magical/spiritual entity that is hosted in the body" False - it is a separate being. If you're taking drugs then your soul suffers in this sense that you commit a mortal sin. It will not "feel drunk" because "you" are drunk. My advice is: Go to confession and reproach yourself for all these ugly things you did. Eeeergh... whatever
Greetings - Gajatko Portable.NET is part of DotGNU, a project to build a complete Free Software replacement for .NET - a system that truly belongs to the developers.
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Yeah yeah. Nothing like a foreigner to be an English language pedant. You shoulud nkow that English is in fact a bastardised, gutter, scum language, almost totally devoid of any structure and suitable for only the lowest form of discussion. Thats why Newton released Principia in Latin, and why Shakespeare never wrote down his plays. They didnt repect the language.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
English is a highly evolved language that has assimilated many of the languages from the countries around it. It's highly expressive and highly adaptable. Where southern Europe had their renaissance in art. England had its renaissance in literature. Shakespeare, whom you stated did not respect the language has been its biggest single contributer. He invented a great many words. I can't believe he would have written so much and so well if he didn't have a love for the language. Newton would more likely have written Principia in Latin to give it more gravitas(he he).
fat_boy wrote:
You shoulud nkow that English is in fact a bastardised, gutter, scum language, almost totally devoid of any structure and suitable for only the lowest form of discussion.
:laugh: Yeah, right. Kicked your self in the nuts there.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius -
English is a highly evolved language that has assimilated many of the languages from the countries around it. It's highly expressive and highly adaptable. Where southern Europe had their renaissance in art. England had its renaissance in literature. Shakespeare, whom you stated did not respect the language has been its biggest single contributer. He invented a great many words. I can't believe he would have written so much and so well if he didn't have a love for the language. Newton would more likely have written Principia in Latin to give it more gravitas(he he).
fat_boy wrote:
You shoulud nkow that English is in fact a bastardised, gutter, scum language, almost totally devoid of any structure and suitable for only the lowest form of discussion.
:laugh: Yeah, right. Kicked your self in the nuts there.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus AureliusTClarke wrote:
Shakespeare, whom you stated did not respect the language has been its biggest single contributer. He invented a great many word
Do you think if he resepected it he would have invented 2,000 odd words, and used it in such bizare combinations? No, he was a popularist. He wrote sordid, steamy, consumerist plays with no intention that they should last any longer than a season. No intention that they should be preserved. Using words that were designed merely to capture the attentiuon of the audience. Audacious creations, puns, colourfull metaphor mixing. No, he didnt respect it any further than the next time the doors of the GLobe opened. It is one of our countries odd quirks that his works SHOULD come to represent English so completely. I will agree that is is an evolved language. It has evolved precisely because it has existed for so long outside of any control, any official body to regulate it. Compare this with French for example.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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TClarke wrote:
Shakespeare, whom you stated did not respect the language has been its biggest single contributer. He invented a great many word
Do you think if he resepected it he would have invented 2,000 odd words, and used it in such bizare combinations? No, he was a popularist. He wrote sordid, steamy, consumerist plays with no intention that they should last any longer than a season. No intention that they should be preserved. Using words that were designed merely to capture the attentiuon of the audience. Audacious creations, puns, colourfull metaphor mixing. No, he didnt respect it any further than the next time the doors of the GLobe opened. It is one of our countries odd quirks that his works SHOULD come to represent English so completely. I will agree that is is an evolved language. It has evolved precisely because it has existed for so long outside of any control, any official body to regulate it. Compare this with French for example.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
Do you think if he resepected it he would have invented 2,000 odd words, and used it in such bizare combinations?
Most certainly. The people I know who have the greatest love of language and have gone on to make a career out of it love to play with the English language. Respecting a language doesn't mean rigidly sticking to the rules of its current incarnation. That's the mechanism of its evolution. Just like an organic system, it's inhabitants (in this case speakers of the language) try every combination of effects and what sticks is allowed to progress. This is seen to the greatest extent by its most talented inhabitants.
fat_boy wrote:
No, he was a popularist. He wrote sordid, steamy, consumerist plays with no intention that they should last any longer than a season. No intention that they should be preserved.
I find it slightly absurd, the idea that Hamlet was written as a throw away piece. The greatness of his work has been analyzed and repeated by every successive generation and not been found wanting at all. In fact it has an enormous following and inspires even to this day. I imagine he was at least vaguely aware of this as he came up with it.
fat_boy wrote:
Using words that were designed merely to capture the attentiuon of the audience. Audacious creations, puns, colourfull metaphor mixing.
Yes, that's what there for and he does it wonderfully.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius -
fat_boy wrote:
Do you think if he resepected it he would have invented 2,000 odd words, and used it in such bizare combinations?
Most certainly. The people I know who have the greatest love of language and have gone on to make a career out of it love to play with the English language. Respecting a language doesn't mean rigidly sticking to the rules of its current incarnation. That's the mechanism of its evolution. Just like an organic system, it's inhabitants (in this case speakers of the language) try every combination of effects and what sticks is allowed to progress. This is seen to the greatest extent by its most talented inhabitants.
fat_boy wrote:
No, he was a popularist. He wrote sordid, steamy, consumerist plays with no intention that they should last any longer than a season. No intention that they should be preserved.
I find it slightly absurd, the idea that Hamlet was written as a throw away piece. The greatness of his work has been analyzed and repeated by every successive generation and not been found wanting at all. In fact it has an enormous following and inspires even to this day. I imagine he was at least vaguely aware of this as he came up with it.
fat_boy wrote:
Using words that were designed merely to capture the attentiuon of the audience. Audacious creations, puns, colourfull metaphor mixing.
Yes, that's what there for and he does it wonderfully.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus AureliusTClarke wrote:
Most certainly. The people I know who have the greatest love of language and have gone on to make a career out of it love to play with the English language. Respecting a language doesn't mean rigidly sticking to the rules of its current incarnation. That's the mechanism of its evolution. Just like an organic system, it's inhabitants (in this case speakers of the language) try every combination of effects and what sticks is allowed to progress. This is seen to the greatest extent by its most talented inhabitants
Like I wrote, compare English to French. French is tightly controolled by the state, and has beedn since 1620. As a result it hasnt changed at all since Voltaire. This is very, very different with English.
TClarke wrote:
I find it slightly absurd, the idea that Hamlet was written as a throw away piece.
If it hadnt been for the efforts of two actors after Shakesperes death, who collected what writen sources there were, and interviewed actors for the rest, we would have lost the lot. As it is we lost at least 3 plays that we know of. Shakespere DIDNT intend his plays to be given to history. They were for immediate consumption. (And yes, it is quite incredible that such prose as this: To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing. could have been lost for ever)
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Yeah yeah. Nothing like a foreigner to be an English language pedant. You shoulud nkow that English is in fact a bastardised, gutter, scum language, almost totally devoid of any structure and suitable for only the lowest form of discussion. Thats why Newton released Principia in Latin, and why Shakespeare never wrote down his plays. They didnt repect the language.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
Yeah yeah. Nothing like a foreigner to be an English language pedant.
:doh: :laugh:
Cheers, विक्रम
And sleep will come, it comes to us all And some will fade and some will fall