Just lazy or no time?
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You replied to my troll post. You told him to stop replying to my troll post.
just call me Dutch Oven - Shog9, baffled by the term "Dunning Kruger"
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
It's the same in the other forums as well. I don't know if it's laziness or not, but it seems that the majority of the questions come from people who don't have the faintest idea of how to program (what are traditionally called "monkey programmers", in the negative sense of that term) trying to pass themselves off as professional programmers and getting lost in the basics of language syntax and OOP concepts. There was a long discussion in the lounge about this not too long ago (The code monkeys are invading![^] A similar trend is occuring with people thinking that earning a Microsoft Certification proves they know how to program and think that since they've been "programming" for 6 months to a year they should get their certification...except they don't have a clue which certification to get or how to go about getting any of the relevant information.
Scott.
—In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday. [Forum Guidelines] [Articles] [Blog]
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
You can't rule out a combination of lazy, lack of time and rampant stupidity. That's a powerful combination that we should be able to harness so that it serves some purpose other than instilling the overriding urge to hunt the poster down and prevent them from polluting the gene pool in any way.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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And what, exactly, do you think you're doing?
You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale...
Nice way to spend a Sunday, trolling for trolls. :)
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Nice way to spend a Sunday, trolling for trolls. :)
Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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I thought of you the other day while i was conjuring up demons and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
just call me Dutch Oven - Shog9, baffled by the term "Dunning Kruger"
INITCOMMONCONTROLSEX wrote:
conjuring up demons
Oh thats sweet, did you have fun.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am. -
It's called evolution. Give it time. They'll be dead soon (from the career perspective) and then things will get better. Yes, as the global economy emerges we are seeing a lot of this. Outsourcing is the biggest problem and India is the epicenter of it. India has some fantastic talent and the huge emergence of outsourcing there has allowed a lot of lousy developers to find work just to meet the demand. But in conversations I have had with Indians and even Chinese they are starting to get a better grip on those types of developers and they are starting to refine the quality/quantity of work coming out of India/China. We are in a state of flux right now where some very high end outsourcing companies in India are trimming the fat which is allowing those under qualified workers a shot at trying to grab smaller projects on their own. I get calls from them weekly. In time this will flatten out and things should get better here. In general quality developers are going to be in short supply around the world soon and that will make life easier on all of us.
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
Michael H. Schubert wrote:
I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first?
I can't say exactly what it is. But the problem is widespread. I've been interviewing people for the past two months and the number of people that can't answer basic questions is amazing. A SQL Expert wasn't able to write a SELECT statement joining two tables together. Another guy who had supposedly done a lot of OO couldn't comprehend a simple three class UML diagram. And don't get me started on the technical test we put to people. We sit them down in front of Visual Studio so they are in as natural an environment as possible. We then ask them to write a simple program that gets data and puts it on the screen. The form the data takes is up to them, text file, XML file, or a couple of tables in a database. We want to see how they structure an application. They can use C# or VB.NET (although they are told they will be expected to cross to C# if they don't already use it) The specification is sufficiently loose that they can play to their strengths - and that is what we want to see. However, I think at least a couple have shot themselves in the foot by trying to second guess what we'd like to see and going with that.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: db4o: An Embeddable Database Engine for Object-Oriented Environments, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services ... My website
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I can't remember the last time I posted a technical a question to a forum - I might have done it once or twice, but generally will just google the answer... I think it's inherant laziness on the part of the people who post the questions. They are so slack they won't even do a cursory search of the web before asking someone to complete their homework for them!!
------------------------------------------- Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow; Don't walk behind me, I may not lead; Just bugger off and leave me alone!!
_Damian S_ wrote:
I can't remember the last time I posted a technical a question to a forum - I might have done it once or twice, but generally will just google the answer...
Absolutely. These days I can get most stuff from searching the internet. It is probably once in a blue moon that I post a technical question on a forum.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: db4o: An Embeddable Database Engine for Object-Oriented Environments, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services ... My website
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
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I only visit Code Project from time to time nowadays but a couple of years ago when I did more (C++) programming, I got plenty of useful information from the articles hosted here. However, I only asked a question once or twice in the forums when I was stuck and couldn't get the info from Google or MSDN. I noticed in the VC++ forum (might be the same in other forums) that people are asking *very* basic questions frequently, stuff that one could easily find in books, MSDN or Google. Also, some guys seem to think that they should be able to write advanced code without even having basic knowledge of the language they are using. I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first? Michael
Michael H. Schubert wrote:
I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first?
Neither. It's stupidity, the continuing result of programming becoming more and more accessible to the masses, especially those in countries that are the destination of oursourcing. Does that remark seem prejudiced to you, or does it touch on the truth? Marc
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INITCOMMONCONTROLSEX wrote:
conjuring up demons
Oh thats sweet, did you have fun.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am.jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Oh thats sweet, did you have fun.
I haven't heard of that euphimism for masturbation before. Conjuring up demons just doesn't sound right.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Oh thats sweet, did you have fun.
I haven't heard of that euphimism for masturbation before. Conjuring up demons just doesn't sound right.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Oh thats sweet, did you have fun.
I haven't heard of that euphimism for masturbation before. Conjuring up demons just doesn't sound right.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
:laugh:
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->ßRÅhmmÃ<-·´¯`·.
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
The 'quality' of the questions in the C++ forum has steadily gone downhill.
I agree, and it is happening in other forums here.
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
The number of homework questions
Must be the beginning of a new semester or quarter...
Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
it appears there are a lot of very junior or poorly trained programmers being dumped into projects with significant technical challenges.
Or some HR idiot that doesn't know what kind of candidate really needs to be hired for the job...
"Try asking what you want to know, rather than asking a question whose answer you know." - Christian Graus
Paul Conrad wrote:
Or some HR idiot that doesn't know what kind of candidate really needs to be hired for the job...
So many of them work from outdated descriptions for certain roles it's not funny. If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation. Don't get me wrong I still code in C++ - but when you have the .Net Framework for Windows why would you use C++?
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You replied to my troll post. You told him to stop replying to my troll post.
just call me Dutch Oven - Shog9, baffled by the term "Dunning Kruger"
Then that would be hypocrisy, not irony
"More functions should disregard input values and just return 12. It would make life easier." - comment posted on WTF
"This time yesterday, I still had 24 hours to meet the deadline I've just missed today."
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_Damian S_ wrote:
You could substitute the words "easier on" with "busier for"
That might be so. I can only imagine people having to go in and clean up sloppy code from not-so-talented developers.
"Any sort of work in VB6 is bound to provide several WTF moments." - Christian Graus
*GROAN* Not again! I promise to be a good boy mama, just don't let me fix crappy code! :((
______________________ There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't... ______________________ "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook ______________________ "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance." Ali ibn Abi Talib
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Michael H. Schubert wrote:
I'm curious, is this just just lazyness or are these guys under so much pressure that they don't have time to research properly or learn the basics first?
Neither. It's stupidity, the continuing result of programming becoming more and more accessible to the masses, especially those in countries that are the destination of oursourcing. Does that remark seem prejudiced to you, or does it touch on the truth? Marc
Marc, we have that same problem in the Middle East too. I'm not calling myself a crack shot programmer, I'm just hoping that one day I'll have the skills. Meanwhile, where I work, we pride ourselves on being the creme de la creme of the local coders. Currently, the "passing" rate is something like 3/1000. Bad coders are rampant everywhere and its making it SO much harder for the decent folks. You tell me, isn't finding good talent a problem anywhere?
______________________ There are 10 kinds of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't... ______________________ "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook ______________________ "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance." Ali ibn Abi Talib
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Paul Conrad wrote:
Or some HR idiot that doesn't know what kind of candidate really needs to be hired for the job...
So many of them work from outdated descriptions for certain roles it's not funny. If I see C++ listed against a Windows O/S I know somethign is very wrong with that organisation. Don't get me wrong I still code in C++ - but when you have the .Net Framework for Windows why would you use C++?
Not necessarily. It depends what the organisation are doing, and what constraints the technology or domain they work within imposes. For example, we don't use .Net in our production code, simply because of inproc versioning issues and the fact that we already have a large library of WTL code to support our products. Even if the versioning issues were addressed in a future .NET release,moving everything over would be a huge risk and just not something we could justify.
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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There's a simple solution of course: break the busiest forums into beginner and advanced.
Modo vincis, modo vinceris.
Good in theory - bad in practise... then you just get the beginners posting with an introduction of "I posted this in beginners, but I thought you guys might be able to answer better". I think the thing that bugged me the most is when you post replies in articles to reply to other peoples problems and help them out - then you get private messages from people with dumb questions saying "you seem to know what you're talking about, can you help me with...".