Quick Poll
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I was referring mostly to programmers, but didn't want to exclude others in IT in general. Yeah I see your point, IT pro does conjure up visions of SAs. As a physics major, we were required to take Computer Science 101, which was just a programming course. When I took it, it was all Pascal. A couple of years later they switched to C++. I wish they had switched sooner. That was a couple of years before Java 1.1 was out.
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I got a degree in Engineering Physics. The first serious programming course I took was Fortran and I almost quit right then as the prof. I had was a lousy teacher, but my couselor talked me into continuing and I'm glad I did cause I hooked up with a brilliant prof. for the remainder of my classes. He was a very good mentor but an odd guy! Mike
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. "George Carlin"
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I'm doing it through the Open University[^]. I've found it very time consuming but satisfying though I do take breaks as family life and business get in the way. I've not once found that the lack of a degree held me back either working in the UK or the US. Anyway, good luck with yoru juggling: I'm lucky in that my kids are now all growed up and ready to fly the coop. Happy days: it's given me a desire to return to my first career. Maybe just a pipedream, though, it's been a while!
Thanks for the link, I'll look into it. In the States I have never really needed the degree, most people recognize that experience is just as important. But I've been looking for a way to go back to Japan, and a degree is still very important to most employers there.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I'm the opposite...I went to school to be a programmer but fell into the graphics business. Still keeping up the the technologies however (one of the reasons I'm here)...seems like that's all I do is keeping up with technologies....
David Lockwood wrote:
seems like that's all I do is keeping up with technologies
Yeah I know the feeling. I posted something a while back about feeling left behind with WPF. I went to school for graphics because I've been drawing since I could hold a pencil. And fresh out of high school I had no idea what I wanted to do. I finally decided that I wanted art to stay a hobby and that I didn't really like the idea of somebody telling what to do, what color and how. Physics was just interesting to me, and I loved math. For a long time I felt like I'd wasted time in graphics and science when I ultimately was going into programming. But both have been a blessing. Physics not so much, but the math background, and art will always be an important part of UIs. As odd as it sounds, I guess it was a good combination for a programming career.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I got a certificate in "Computer programming and Systems analysis and design" from Control Data Institute. I had been a hobby programmer for years before that and I feel the only benefit I got from it was wide exposure to a lot of now obsolete programming languages, the novelty of 8 inch floppy disks and a nearly crushing debt that I only paid off completely a decade and a half later. In the end I think it's just a matter of personality. More entrepenurial type people benefit most in my opinion from self study. People who prefer to work in a team as an employee tend to benefit best from a formal education.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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A lot of persons in the business application domain insist that formal education in computer science is not necessary. However, I am not one of them. CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
CS is vitally important to the success of any project
Phhbbbt! (that's me making a rasberry sound at you). Utter tripe and hogwash! Degrees and committees don't make sucessful projects, good people do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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David Lockwood wrote:
seems like that's all I do is keeping up with technologies
Yeah I know the feeling. I posted something a while back about feeling left behind with WPF. I went to school for graphics because I've been drawing since I could hold a pencil. And fresh out of high school I had no idea what I wanted to do. I finally decided that I wanted art to stay a hobby and that I didn't really like the idea of somebody telling what to do, what color and how. Physics was just interesting to me, and I loved math. For a long time I felt like I'd wasted time in graphics and science when I ultimately was going into programming. But both have been a blessing. Physics not so much, but the math background, and art will always be an important part of UIs. As odd as it sounds, I guess it was a good combination for a programming career.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I agree...the graphics helps for a lot of things. The programming helps for the 3D graphics as well, like 3DS Max, Adobe After Effects, etc...you'd be a bit lost in those without some programming knowledge. Very true, kinda tired of people telling me what color :P "Can we get the icon in Cornflower Blue?" :)
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Heh, the way i found my way into IT is quite interesting.... becauase i wanted to be a Vet. I did bio / chem / maths as A-Level and pretty much failed them all. My course tutor told me that a local uni was doing a computing degree and had spaces. I applied there, got the place, wrote my first Hello World program and decided coding was awesome (6 years ago). I then spent more time researching design practices and writing code than i did going to lectures, re-sat a year and finished with a 2:2. I started my first job as a junior developer in a company that had no employees with formal training and was full of VB heads with no clue as to design or structure. From there, i learned everything i needed to know about how to completely f**k up a project and what not to do when developing. I campaigned for sensible coding and design practices, was duly ignored / told to shut up, and eventualy left. Now I'm the lead .Net architect at a fantastic company where i manage 3 projects and a team of 4 devs. I now think in code so much, that when someone gives a yes/no answer to a multiple choice question, my instinct is to throw a TypeCastException. T
------------------------------- Carrier Bags - 21st Century Tumbleweed.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I think it is so funny when people mention they do not have their degree in their post because they immediately (most of the time) follow that up with a reference to some "idiot" or "moron" person who has their degree. As though because there's a moron with a degree somehow validates the absence of a degree. People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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Heh, the way i found my way into IT is quite interesting.... becauase i wanted to be a Vet. I did bio / chem / maths as A-Level and pretty much failed them all. My course tutor told me that a local uni was doing a computing degree and had spaces. I applied there, got the place, wrote my first Hello World program and decided coding was awesome (6 years ago). I then spent more time researching design practices and writing code than i did going to lectures, re-sat a year and finished with a 2:2. I started my first job as a junior developer in a company that had no employees with formal training and was full of VB heads with no clue as to design or structure. From there, i learned everything i needed to know about how to completely f**k up a project and what not to do when developing. I campaigned for sensible coding and design practices, was duly ignored / told to shut up, and eventualy left. Now I'm the lead .Net architect at a fantastic company where i manage 3 projects and a team of 4 devs. I now think in code so much, that when someone gives a yes/no answer to a multiple choice question, my instinct is to throw a TypeCastException. T
------------------------------- Carrier Bags - 21st Century Tumbleweed.
Funny how that works... Most of the work in design practices and patterns probably came from looking at other people's crappy code. Once you start running into problems in your own code, you very often learn how a better design could have avoided it, but you see that a lot more looking at others code.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have Zero formal training and dropped out of school in 9th grade (got me GED at least). The bug got me back in 1981 when I bought my Commodore VIC 20 computer with a huge 3.5k RAM. Could not put it down and began to read about ever book I could find on software development for the 6502 CPU world. After a few years I moved to IBM PC clones and kept learning while providing solutions to small businesses in my area. And so went the next few decades :) When I wanted to work as an employee, I have not had any trouble finding work and typically get hired at the first company I interview with. Anyone can learn to be a developer with all the resources that are avaialble online and in print. The main problem with a self-taught education is how wide you study, that is, what areas of development you might leave out as you have no need at the time. Some companies require a formal education, but most accept years of proven quality experience. If you do not have the years of experience under your belt though, formal education will get you through door. I think S Smerk nailed it at you are either born a programmer or not. That is you need a passion for development not just a job. If you provide quality work, have the proven experience and dependable references, you can always find good pay somewhere.
Rocky <>< Blog Post: MVC for ASP.NET! Tech Blog Post: Cheap Biofuels and Synthetics coming soon?
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I agree...the graphics helps for a lot of things. The programming helps for the 3D graphics as well, like 3DS Max, Adobe After Effects, etc...you'd be a bit lost in those without some programming knowledge. Very true, kinda tired of people telling me what color :P "Can we get the icon in Cornflower Blue?" :)
David Lockwood wrote:
Very true, kinda tired of people telling me what color "Can we get the icon in Cornflower Blue?"
That's a lot easier to do than making the deserts more green!! :laugh: I've done both!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Agree, but there is a HELL of a lot of theoretical stuff you learn through a formal educaiton that you never learn on the job. And that knowledge can help a hell of a lot when it comes to umderstanding why someone else did it that way. Lilke someone at Microsoft and trying to work out just why they did it a certain way. Dont forget, what THEY kown, is what YOU know if you take formal educaiton. And it helps. (BTW I have a masters)
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
Agree, but there is a HELL of a lot of theoretical stuff you learn through a formal educaiton that you never learn on the job.
Firstly I didn't say I had NO education and I don't know of anyone in the business who didn't have at least 1 CSE in Dom Sci. :-) I was motivated enough to try and learn everything I could and still (much to the consternation of the wife and famille) spend a great deal of my time playing and studying and trying to get under the hood so that I can understand the minutae of what it is I have chosen to do with the whys not just the hows and I (and many other self-taughts that I know) enjoy the theory side of comp sci. So stop being such a fucking snob.
fat_boy wrote:
Lilke someone at Microsoft and trying to work out just why they did it a certain way.
Now I know you're having a laugh. Anyway, I, too, have a master: she's staring at me right now...
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I think it is so funny when people mention they do not have their degree in their post because they immediately (most of the time) follow that up with a reference to some "idiot" or "moron" person who has their degree. As though because there's a moron with a degree somehow validates the absence of a degree. People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
jgasm wrote:
People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
I think you read a bit more defensively than you should have. I saw a lot of posts saying basically: "A degree doesn't prove you know something, and not having a degree doesn't prove you do NOT know something." In the end, degree or not, it is up to your skill and your skill alone. That was what most of the posts were about. I do not find that either against a degree or for it. It simply says you still have to know your job whether you have a degree or not. I find that a rather positive statement, that does not insult or demote degrees in an way. If you were insulted by the idea that all programmers have to rely on their own skills, then I am sorry you feel that way, because it is simply the truth. Unless you are here to say that a degree automatically DOES qualify you over all those without? I wouldn't find anything insulting above.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I think it is so funny when people mention they do not have their degree in their post because they immediately (most of the time) follow that up with a reference to some "idiot" or "moron" person who has their degree. As though because there's a moron with a degree somehow validates the absence of a degree. People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
That's a tad unfair: no one has done any name calling and this thread appears fairly balanced. Bear in mind that there are as many really smart people without a degree as there are with one. The degree, of itself, should not be the end of your education, merely a stepping stone. People without a degree just landed on different steps. ps When I were a lad only 1 in 10 pupils went to university as it was a lot harder to get in and there were limited places. So there were a lot of really bright people who took an alternate route for a variety of reasons.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
CS is vitally important to the success of any project
Phhbbbt! (that's me making a rasberry sound at you). Utter tripe and hogwash! Degrees and committees don't make sucessful projects, good people do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
Where I never used the word degree. There are lots of Great people who cannot come together to make a successful project to save there lives. When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way. People that have learned the true way without a formal cs background are the exception and not the rule. In fact write 3 nested for loops and go ask someone what the runtime is and tell me the answer. So many don't understand or don't even care to understand and well ... Wait, you know what, I should stop complaining. 100% of my consulting business is cleaning up this sort of mess.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
I have a BS degree in EE and a BS degree in CS although I can say that at least 80% of my IT knowledge was learned in the 10.5 years I have been on the job.
BoneSoft wrote:
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you? Well after getting me the job the second biggest thing my degrees do for me is they help when I get promoted. I mean in our company I would not be able to be a Systems Analyst / Programmer IV (basically the highest level) without the degrees and 5 years of experience.
John
John M. Drescher wrote:
I mean in our company I would not be able to be a Systems Analyst / Programmer IV (basically the highest level) without the degrees and 5 years of experience.
Which is the reason I am already planning on going back. Although a degree can't offer me any new skills or abilities, it can offer me a promotion.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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jgasm wrote:
People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
I think you read a bit more defensively than you should have. I saw a lot of posts saying basically: "A degree doesn't prove you know something, and not having a degree doesn't prove you do NOT know something." In the end, degree or not, it is up to your skill and your skill alone. That was what most of the posts were about. I do not find that either against a degree or for it. It simply says you still have to know your job whether you have a degree or not. I find that a rather positive statement, that does not insult or demote degrees in an way. If you were insulted by the idea that all programmers have to rely on their own skills, then I am sorry you feel that way, because it is simply the truth. Unless you are here to say that a degree automatically DOES qualify you over all those without? I wouldn't find anything insulting above.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
I think you read a bit more defensively than you should have.
I did not mean to come off as defensive. Nor did I intend on denying the obvious that we all rely on our own skills. I was more trying to comment on the way that people feel the need to put someone else down when they feel they are saying something that undermines themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a degree in Computer Science. The only class I felt that was truly helpful for the real world was Software Engineering where we had to go through the entire design and documentation process. Most programming is logic. If you can figure out the logic, you just have to learn the syntax of the specific language. I think the Data Structures class helped with understanding logic better. I enjoyed my database classes but then again, I love designing databases and drawing Visio diagrams of them.
