Quick Poll
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It is a waste of my breath to argue the point. I just reap the rewards from companies not listening.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayIf I were to hazard a guess I'd say you are reaping the rewards from companies who have developers working for them that have plenty of certifications, little real world experience and are payed very little for what they do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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Well, I worked at the computer lab help desk in college. I used that on my resume along with retail management (assistant manager at a bookstore) to get a software support job for a retail company. Then I got a new job doing Crystal Reports. At that job I went to Executrain / Learning Tree in 2001 / 2002 and became a .net developer. After six years of programming (and only 3 IT jobs) I have been promoted to senior developer. I enjoy programming a lot. Learing is fun. Actually enjoying this stuff is, IMO, is what makes someone a good programmer. BTW, I spent most of college drinking beer and chasing girls. I wasn't that into school. Although I did graduate in 4 years.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
:laugh: Booze and chicks was my real major too. In physics I used to say that of course alcohol kills brain cells, but only the weak ones.
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Where I never used the word degree. There are lots of Great people who cannot come together to make a successful project to save there lives. When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way. People that have learned the true way without a formal cs background are the exception and not the rule. In fact write 3 nested for loops and go ask someone what the runtime is and tell me the answer. So many don't understand or don't even care to understand and well ... Wait, you know what, I should stop complaining. 100% of my consulting business is cleaning up this sort of mess.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way.
well yeah if they're only spending $10k per head they need a mob of people to make up for the collective incompetence.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Well, I'm the unqualified tech guy. I programmed a GDI+ app in VB, ported it using regexes to convert it, into C#. It works great. Plays sounds using DirectX as well. For the Church I go to, I work all the sound equipment for the band. Realtime mixing of 4 guitars, 8 singers and some other instruments ain't so easy. I've been doing that for 7 months. In terms of related training, the minister looked at the soundboard for 2 minutes, flicked a switch according to something from the manual, and that was it. I've never been told how to program bar a very basic course at High school for Computing. We've done exactly the same thing in 6 weeks at uni, using Java. To give an idea of the levels we've been taught to, the most advanced thing I've ever been told by someone other than MSDN or my own powers of deduction, was Case statements (TrueBasic) or the "extends" keyword in Java for sub-classes. Scary...subclasses! This was in a pointless lecture and won't even be in the test. So, all I ever got from training was "this is programming" and I've spent 4 years teaching myself how to. Although, some of the uni lectures about software development have been pretty good in terms of solidifying some knowledge I had, but filling in gaps as well. On an aside we used the IBM official software documentation in those lectures.
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be... -
If I were to hazard a guess I'd say you are reaping the rewards from companies who have developers working for them that have plenty of certifications, little real world experience and are payed very little for what they do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
All except the last part. I am amazed when I find out what many of them make. I had a Senior ASP.NET architect ask me what <li> meant. Great guy but come on.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
Well, I'm the unqualified tech guy. I programmed a GDI+ app in VB, ported it using regexes to convert it, into C#. It works great. Plays sounds using DirectX as well. For the Church I go to, I work all the sound equipment for the band. Realtime mixing of 4 guitars, 8 singers and some other instruments ain't so easy. I've been doing that for 7 months. In terms of related training, the minister looked at the soundboard for 2 minutes, flicked a switch according to something from the manual, and that was it. I've never been told how to program bar a very basic course at High school for Computing. We've done exactly the same thing in 6 weeks at uni, using Java. To give an idea of the levels we've been taught to, the most advanced thing I've ever been told by someone other than MSDN or my own powers of deduction, was Case statements (TrueBasic) or the "extends" keyword in Java for sub-classes. Scary...subclasses! This was in a pointless lecture and won't even be in the test. So, all I ever got from training was "this is programming" and I've spent 4 years teaching myself how to. Although, some of the uni lectures about software development have been pretty good in terms of solidifying some knowledge I had, but filling in gaps as well. On an aside we used the IBM official software documentation in those lectures.
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be...Yeah, I took a Java class in college just for fun. It was around the time of Java 1.1. The class was basically just doing applets and nothing really deep either. It was a good intro to OOP, but the final was just about any project what would compile. The only two final projects that really did anything were mine and the only girl in the class. I had a form that interfaced a database, and she made a networked paint app (which was pretty kewl actually). I don't know why after 12 years programming and 17 years of playing guitar I've recently started to wonder if I could gain anything from formal programming classes and guitar lessons. I guess when you're virtually completely self taught you tend to wonder if you missed anything. But with software methodologies, technologies and practices, there's always something to read. So I guess you still get the benefit of the industry's knowledge as long as you keep reading and researching.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a degree in Electronic and Electrical Engineering, with specialisations in Microwave and RF Engineering, Telecommunications and Digital Signal Processing. It's pure accident that I ended up as a full-time developer - I was just in the right place at the right time to lead a small software team writing virtual instrument software for an avionics ATE project. I've not looked back since.
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I knew I wanted to be a developer since I was 10 years old. I studied IT after school, just to get a piece of paper needed to get a job. From there I self studied everything I needed to know for specific projects. You need experience to move to better positions, but you can't get experience (your first job) if you have nothing to show for it.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Selftaught.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
MS in Engineering Physics. Minus 10% of the thesis, which I didn't finish before getting into this business 8 years ago. Thought I could finish it in parallel with the real job, but real life came in its way... :cool:
-- Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time - Bertrand Russel
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fat_boy wrote:
Agree, but there is a HELL of a lot of theoretical stuff you learn through a formal educaiton that you never learn on the job.
Firstly I didn't say I had NO education and I don't know of anyone in the business who didn't have at least 1 CSE in Dom Sci. :-) I was motivated enough to try and learn everything I could and still (much to the consternation of the wife and famille) spend a great deal of my time playing and studying and trying to get under the hood so that I can understand the minutae of what it is I have chosen to do with the whys not just the hows and I (and many other self-taughts that I know) enjoy the theory side of comp sci. So stop being such a fucking snob.
fat_boy wrote:
Lilke someone at Microsoft and trying to work out just why they did it a certain way.
Now I know you're having a laugh. Anyway, I, too, have a master: she's staring at me right now...
I guess the difference is that I am original a mechanical engineer and I know that one cannot develop the required skill to do such a job from first principles. There is no way you can work out for yourself Youngs moduus of elasticity, polar moments of inertia, bernoulis equation (for flow dynamics) and so on. The difference with computer engineering is that there is no physical world to play with, on the the creation of some guy at microsoft, or a scnadanivian, or some other individual, so it makes the subject matter less 'cast in concrete' and more up to the quirks of human nature. Computer engineering is too much a spotty 17 year old playing at home in his bedroom, rather than designing a bridge, or a car component. However, there are still aspects of software engineering that are real engineering, and for this, I found formal training very usefull.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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fat_boy wrote:
And that knowledge can help a hell of a lot when it comes to umderstanding why someone else did it that way
And you are somehow incapable of learning this on your own without a formal education? Did society forget how to read? how to pull a list of Doctorate thesis and learn what has already been done by others? attend conferences and learn research areas beyond education? Did these disappear recently? did educating yourself get turned over to someone else recently? the question was about "formal" education, not education in general. You don't have to go to a university to learn these things. In fact the work out of Georgia institute of technology helped me a lot. I simply never attended there.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
You got a five for this? The whole point of a university is that it brings together, concentrates, all that yopu mention here into one place of learning, so in a short time one can learn what is required for a career in a particular profession. Also, how does the individual determine WHAT needs to be learnt? As some one who is also a qualified mechanical engineer let me tell you that it would be next to impossible to learn THAT subject matter without a formal education. The only reason there are so many cowboys in software is that it isnt a propper discipline, it is more an attempt to understand the workings of someones mind when they put together some part of an OS, or system. (And dont tell me that C++ with all its 'inheritance' and 'polymorphism' (again the creation of an individual not nature) is anywhere near as demanding as working out the stress on a steel framed building and calculating the required beam sizes.))
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I used to work as a SysAdmin, when I was given the opportunity to get into development. I have no formal training whatsoever (besides 3 years CS in High School with Pascal), and I can write good, clean code according to standards better than most CS grads. I don't think it's really a matter of getting formal education or not. If you don't stay interested, involved and continually evolve to new languages, practices and developments, you are not going to be any good anyway. I know of CS graduates who work in management in various comapanies who couldn't write decent code or development better solutions because they have fallen behind on the standards of today. In the 4-odd years I've been developing professionally I've learn't C#, some C++, SQL, Javascript, some VB (because of legacy code), Python and PHP. And I can write intricate code to solve difficult problems only because I've stayed involved. I've learn't more from community support groups (like our local .NET group - SADeveloper.net), Microsoft events like DevDays and TechEd, and networking and learning from some brilliant developers than I would have learn't in the same period doing some formal degree. Yes you can get a theoretical level of understanding, but I think the formal training (degrees that is) "boxes" your mind, you forget to think creatively and out of the box on problems.
________________________________ Dewald Troskie GIS Developer "There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't"
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I hold a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science. Straight after the college at the first company I worked for we had a guy who ended his education after high school and he was the most experienced developer of the bunch. I learned quite a few things from him. :) I still think I don't know much. College taught me SQL for the most part, I guess. And PHP which I don't use anymore. We had C++ in programming classes, but I think the level of it was not satisfactory, pretty basic stuff, I never programmed in C++ after that. I had to learn Delphi on my own and not so long ago moved into .NET field - also on my own. Please, show some understanding when I ask you stupid questions. :P Overall, I think the major gain is the diploma itself.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak
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You got a five for this? The whole point of a university is that it brings together, concentrates, all that yopu mention here into one place of learning, so in a short time one can learn what is required for a career in a particular profession. Also, how does the individual determine WHAT needs to be learnt? As some one who is also a qualified mechanical engineer let me tell you that it would be next to impossible to learn THAT subject matter without a formal education. The only reason there are so many cowboys in software is that it isnt a propper discipline, it is more an attempt to understand the workings of someones mind when they put together some part of an OS, or system. (And dont tell me that C++ with all its 'inheritance' and 'polymorphism' (again the creation of an individual not nature) is anywhere near as demanding as working out the stress on a steel framed building and calculating the required beam sizes.))
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
There are as many "cowboy" programmers with college educations primarily because they don't teach it in school. They get this idea that if they didn't learn it in school it doesn't exist. Yes I am familure with mechanical engineering. more than my brother and it's his degree. So there are still no books? you are incapable of learning from text books?
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Semi-Serious question : What is IT ? Are you including programmers, developers ? For me, an IT professional is a glorified sys-admin. I have a bachelor in Computer Science; most of the courses were theoretical courses , and all of the programming work was done on specialized languages (prolog, Simula, VHDL, Miranda ...). There was NO C or C++ courses or stuff like that; or even less sys-admin related courses.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
I have a bit of a mixture. An electronic apprentiship, some formal university computer science training (but not to degree level), and lots of self taught knowledge. As a developer where a lot of self teaching is involved, I think there are 2 very significant parts of my training, both of them from university ... 1. The formal training involving hardware elements and macro level machine code (CS300), leading to developing a simple compiler. (on DEC - PDP systems) 2. Internal data structures using C (CS340) (lots of indirection involved - really hammering pointers). Having a good grounding in these 2 helps a great deal when learning new languages like C#, which is what I do now. I work with a group, and have worked with others in the past, who have not benefitted from these basics, and I find the difference in understanding what's going on when the programs execute and how systems hang together almost screams out. I am one of the 'old boys' whose learning started before moving into the OO world. For me it was an easy switch, but I can easily see it being difficult for mainframe cobol developers. My route was C, C++, C# (with basket weaving, better known as VB in there as well). I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code. Ken Ede - lead developer - Europa Group.
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I have a bit of a mixture. An electronic apprentiship, some formal university computer science training (but not to degree level), and lots of self taught knowledge. As a developer where a lot of self teaching is involved, I think there are 2 very significant parts of my training, both of them from university ... 1. The formal training involving hardware elements and macro level machine code (CS300), leading to developing a simple compiler. (on DEC - PDP systems) 2. Internal data structures using C (CS340) (lots of indirection involved - really hammering pointers). Having a good grounding in these 2 helps a great deal when learning new languages like C#, which is what I do now. I work with a group, and have worked with others in the past, who have not benefitted from these basics, and I find the difference in understanding what's going on when the programs execute and how systems hang together almost screams out. I am one of the 'old boys' whose learning started before moving into the OO world. For me it was an easy switch, but I can easily see it being difficult for mainframe cobol developers. My route was C, C++, C# (with basket weaving, better known as VB in there as well). I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code. Ken Ede - lead developer - Europa Group.
Learning the basics of computer architecture,and machine language should be a primary requisite of any Comp Si course or nearly any science course. Its as important as mathematics. I started out in a BSEE regimen before the advent of digital electronics, microprocessors and such where just being developed so a course in basic computer architecture including generic machine programming changed my life. I went to work for Motorola, doing in house test equipment design, while still in school. Got involved in programming on 6800 and z80's and 8080 processors. Now I use VB, C#, for most stuff but because of the training in the basics, can learn new languages with ease. One thing of course about C.S. courses is they don't teach most of the real world skills that are needed.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin Buddha Dave
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Learning the basics of computer architecture,and machine language should be a primary requisite of any Comp Si course or nearly any science course. Its as important as mathematics. I started out in a BSEE regimen before the advent of digital electronics, microprocessors and such where just being developed so a course in basic computer architecture including generic machine programming changed my life. I went to work for Motorola, doing in house test equipment design, while still in school. Got involved in programming on 6800 and z80's and 8080 processors. Now I use VB, C#, for most stuff but because of the training in the basics, can learn new languages with ease. One thing of course about C.S. courses is they don't teach most of the real world skills that are needed.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin Buddha Dave
A very good point about the real world skills. The soft skills are so important as most of us work with other people. I don't think university can help here; that comes from experience and I'm still learning. Completely agree with understanding the basics - that's what I was trying to get at. Ken.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I had formal training. helped a fair amount. did all the relational database and design stuff, drew pretty pictures with flow charts and stuff, and then eventually got onto the actual programming. did JAVA, and then a half language of C# (ie, without database, like serious basics of it). I then wrote an application that my dad had wanted. suddenly, SQL made sense, I didn't find it to be the major mission it was. I was programming in sharp develop, and my knowledge of syntax grew fairly well. I wasn't reading out of the book anymore =P. learnt asp.net at my current job, have gotten fairly decent at it. but anywho, I feel that the formal training I received helped me understand programming more than if I hadn't had it. after all, alot of what we look for these days is syntax to do something, but understand the logic behind it =P anywho, that's my 2 cents worth.