Quick Poll
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I have a BS degree in EE and a BS degree in CS although I can say that at least 80% of my IT knowledge was learned in the 10.5 years I have been on the job.
BoneSoft wrote:
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you? Well after getting me the job the second biggest thing my degrees do for me is they help when I get promoted. I mean in our company I would not be able to be a Systems Analyst / Programmer IV (basically the highest level) without the degrees and 5 years of experience.
John
John M. Drescher wrote:
I mean in our company I would not be able to be a Systems Analyst / Programmer IV (basically the highest level) without the degrees and 5 years of experience.
Which is the reason I am already planning on going back. Although a degree can't offer me any new skills or abilities, it can offer me a promotion.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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jgasm wrote:
People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
I think you read a bit more defensively than you should have. I saw a lot of posts saying basically: "A degree doesn't prove you know something, and not having a degree doesn't prove you do NOT know something." In the end, degree or not, it is up to your skill and your skill alone. That was what most of the posts were about. I do not find that either against a degree or for it. It simply says you still have to know your job whether you have a degree or not. I find that a rather positive statement, that does not insult or demote degrees in an way. If you were insulted by the idea that all programmers have to rely on their own skills, then I am sorry you feel that way, because it is simply the truth. Unless you are here to say that a degree automatically DOES qualify you over all those without? I wouldn't find anything insulting above.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
I think you read a bit more defensively than you should have.
I did not mean to come off as defensive. Nor did I intend on denying the obvious that we all rely on our own skills. I was more trying to comment on the way that people feel the need to put someone else down when they feel they are saying something that undermines themselves.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a degree in Computer Science. The only class I felt that was truly helpful for the real world was Software Engineering where we had to go through the entire design and documentation process. Most programming is logic. If you can figure out the logic, you just have to learn the syntax of the specific language. I think the Data Structures class helped with understanding logic better. I enjoyed my database classes but then again, I love designing databases and drawing Visio diagrams of them.
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Agree, but there is a HELL of a lot of theoretical stuff you learn through a formal educaiton that you never learn on the job. And that knowledge can help a hell of a lot when it comes to umderstanding why someone else did it that way. Lilke someone at Microsoft and trying to work out just why they did it a certain way. Dont forget, what THEY kown, is what YOU know if you take formal educaiton. And it helps. (BTW I have a masters)
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
And that knowledge can help a hell of a lot when it comes to umderstanding why someone else did it that way
And you are somehow incapable of learning this on your own without a formal education? Did society forget how to read? how to pull a list of Doctorate thesis and learn what has already been done by others? attend conferences and learn research areas beyond education? Did these disappear recently? did educating yourself get turned over to someone else recently? the question was about "formal" education, not education in general. You don't have to go to a university to learn these things. In fact the work out of Georgia institute of technology helped me a lot. I simply never attended there.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I have a degree in Computer Science. The only class I felt that was truly helpful for the real world was Software Engineering where we had to go through the entire design and documentation process. Most programming is logic. If you can figure out the logic, you just have to learn the syntax of the specific language. I think the Data Structures class helped with understanding logic better. I enjoyed my database classes but then again, I love designing databases and drawing Visio diagrams of them.
I can relate. I've never understood why, but I've always loved data modeling and expressing models visually as well as in code.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have been programming for six years now. I have a bachelors degree in sociology. I've never had a college level IT class. However, I have been to Learning Tree and Executrain for some .net / sql stuff.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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That's a tad unfair: no one has done any name calling and this thread appears fairly balanced. Bear in mind that there are as many really smart people without a degree as there are with one. The degree, of itself, should not be the end of your education, merely a stepping stone. People without a degree just landed on different steps. ps When I were a lad only 1 in 10 pupils went to university as it was a lot harder to get in and there were limited places. So there were a lot of really bright people who took an alternate route for a variety of reasons.
I do not see how this is "unfair". It's simply an observation to the way people frame their professional background.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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Where I never used the word degree. There are lots of Great people who cannot come together to make a successful project to save there lives. When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way. People that have learned the true way without a formal cs background are the exception and not the rule. In fact write 3 nested for loops and go ask someone what the runtime is and tell me the answer. So many don't understand or don't even care to understand and well ... Wait, you know what, I should stop complaining. 100% of my consulting business is cleaning up this sort of mess.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayThere are people in the world who get things done and there are people that like to talk about getting things done. In the end, when it's my business on the line I could care less about any quality of that person other than their ability to get things done, quickly, efficiently, elegantly and in line with what the end users expect. Computer programming is a craft to me, not a science. If you can craft good software that customers are happy with and sells well, that's the bottom line. If you want to lecture in a university, by all means get all the formal training in the world.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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I have been programming for six years now. I have a bachelors degree in sociology. I've never had a college level IT class. However, I have been to Learning Tree and Executrain for some .net / sql stuff.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
Sociology to software is quite a leap. Sometimes it's pretty interesting how things work out.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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There are people in the world who get things done and there are people that like to talk about getting things done. In the end, when it's my business on the line I could care less about any quality of that person other than their ability to get things done, quickly, efficiently, elegantly and in line with what the end users expect. Computer programming is a craft to me, not a science. If you can craft good software that customers are happy with and sells well, that's the bottom line. If you want to lecture in a university, by all means get all the formal training in the world.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
It is a waste of my breath to argue the point. I just reap the rewards from companies not listening.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
I think it is so funny when people mention they do not have their degree in their post because they immediately (most of the time) follow that up with a reference to some "idiot" or "moron" person who has their degree. As though because there's a moron with a degree somehow validates the absence of a degree. People who do have their degree don't feel the need to say "idiot" or "moron" person that does not have their degree as some kind of an example. Why is that...
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
I don't think I used that terminology and I'm pretty sure I'm one of the most vocal anti formal education people here. I believe the ability to get things done is the most important one a person can have. There are people who are good at getting things done in a particular area of expertise and people who are not; a degree has absolutely nothing, not one iota, relevancy to that quality.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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I don't think I used that terminology and I'm pretty sure I'm one of the most vocal anti formal education people here. I believe the ability to get things done is the most important one a person can have. There are people who are good at getting things done in a particular area of expertise and people who are not; a degree has absolutely nothing, not one iota, relevancy to that quality.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
I'm sorry for the confusion. I wasn't trying to speak on the benefits to a degree or no degree. I was attempting (miserably) to comment on the way people frame their professional background and feel the need to put someone else down (real or imaginary) when they are making statements they are insecure about.
----------------------------------------------------------- Completion Deadline: two days before the day after tomorrow
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Sociology to software is quite a leap. Sometimes it's pretty interesting how things work out.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Well, I worked at the computer lab help desk in college. I used that on my resume along with retail management (assistant manager at a bookstore) to get a software support job for a retail company. Then I got a new job doing Crystal Reports. At that job I went to Executrain / Learning Tree in 2001 / 2002 and became a .net developer. After six years of programming (and only 3 IT jobs) I have been promoted to senior developer. I enjoy programming a lot. Learing is fun. Actually enjoying this stuff is, IMO, is what makes someone a good programmer. BTW, I spent most of college drinking beer and chasing girls. I wasn't that into school. Although I did graduate in 4 years.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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It is a waste of my breath to argue the point. I just reap the rewards from companies not listening.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayIf I were to hazard a guess I'd say you are reaping the rewards from companies who have developers working for them that have plenty of certifications, little real world experience and are payed very little for what they do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
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Well, I worked at the computer lab help desk in college. I used that on my resume along with retail management (assistant manager at a bookstore) to get a software support job for a retail company. Then I got a new job doing Crystal Reports. At that job I went to Executrain / Learning Tree in 2001 / 2002 and became a .net developer. After six years of programming (and only 3 IT jobs) I have been promoted to senior developer. I enjoy programming a lot. Learing is fun. Actually enjoying this stuff is, IMO, is what makes someone a good programmer. BTW, I spent most of college drinking beer and chasing girls. I wasn't that into school. Although I did graduate in 4 years.
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
:laugh: Booze and chicks was my real major too. In physics I used to say that of course alcohol kills brain cells, but only the weak ones.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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Where I never used the word degree. There are lots of Great people who cannot come together to make a successful project to save there lives. When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way. People that have learned the true way without a formal cs background are the exception and not the rule. In fact write 3 nested for loops and go ask someone what the runtime is and tell me the answer. So many don't understand or don't even care to understand and well ... Wait, you know what, I should stop complaining. 100% of my consulting business is cleaning up this sort of mess.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
When I measure success of a project, the end result is not the only metric. Many companies employ hundreds and spend millions to make a simple data driven application with the mistaken belief that the only way to do it is the traditional big business way.
well yeah if they're only spending $10k per head they need a mob of people to make up for the collective incompetence.
-- If you view money as inherently evil, I view it as my duty to assist in making you more virtuous.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Well, I'm the unqualified tech guy. I programmed a GDI+ app in VB, ported it using regexes to convert it, into C#. It works great. Plays sounds using DirectX as well. For the Church I go to, I work all the sound equipment for the band. Realtime mixing of 4 guitars, 8 singers and some other instruments ain't so easy. I've been doing that for 7 months. In terms of related training, the minister looked at the soundboard for 2 minutes, flicked a switch according to something from the manual, and that was it. I've never been told how to program bar a very basic course at High school for Computing. We've done exactly the same thing in 6 weeks at uni, using Java. To give an idea of the levels we've been taught to, the most advanced thing I've ever been told by someone other than MSDN or my own powers of deduction, was Case statements (TrueBasic) or the "extends" keyword in Java for sub-classes. Scary...subclasses! This was in a pointless lecture and won't even be in the test. So, all I ever got from training was "this is programming" and I've spent 4 years teaching myself how to. Although, some of the uni lectures about software development have been pretty good in terms of solidifying some knowledge I had, but filling in gaps as well. On an aside we used the IBM official software documentation in those lectures.
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be... -
If I were to hazard a guess I'd say you are reaping the rewards from companies who have developers working for them that have plenty of certifications, little real world experience and are payed very little for what they do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
All except the last part. I am amazed when I find out what many of them make. I had a Senior ASP.NET architect ask me what <li> meant. Great guy but come on.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
Well, I'm the unqualified tech guy. I programmed a GDI+ app in VB, ported it using regexes to convert it, into C#. It works great. Plays sounds using DirectX as well. For the Church I go to, I work all the sound equipment for the band. Realtime mixing of 4 guitars, 8 singers and some other instruments ain't so easy. I've been doing that for 7 months. In terms of related training, the minister looked at the soundboard for 2 minutes, flicked a switch according to something from the manual, and that was it. I've never been told how to program bar a very basic course at High school for Computing. We've done exactly the same thing in 6 weeks at uni, using Java. To give an idea of the levels we've been taught to, the most advanced thing I've ever been told by someone other than MSDN or my own powers of deduction, was Case statements (TrueBasic) or the "extends" keyword in Java for sub-classes. Scary...subclasses! This was in a pointless lecture and won't even be in the test. So, all I ever got from training was "this is programming" and I've spent 4 years teaching myself how to. Although, some of the uni lectures about software development have been pretty good in terms of solidifying some knowledge I had, but filling in gaps as well. On an aside we used the IBM official software documentation in those lectures.
Ninja (the Nerd)
Confused? You will be...Yeah, I took a Java class in college just for fun. It was around the time of Java 1.1. The class was basically just doing applets and nothing really deep either. It was a good intro to OOP, but the final was just about any project what would compile. The only two final projects that really did anything were mine and the only girl in the class. I had a form that interfaced a database, and she made a networked paint app (which was pretty kewl actually). I don't know why after 12 years programming and 17 years of playing guitar I've recently started to wonder if I could gain anything from formal programming classes and guitar lessons. I guess when you're virtually completely self taught you tend to wonder if you missed anything. But with software methodologies, technologies and practices, there's always something to read. So I guess you still get the benefit of the industry's knowledge as long as you keep reading and researching.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have a degree in Electronic and Electrical Engineering, with specialisations in Microwave and RF Engineering, Telecommunications and Digital Signal Processing. It's pure accident that I ended up as a full-time developer - I was just in the right place at the right time to lead a small software team writing virtual instrument software for an avionics ATE project. I've not looked back since.
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