Quick Poll
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
MrPlankton
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
As my mini-bio notes, in real life I was a research chemist. The real thing - including doing the first Uranium Isotope Enrichment using lasers in a molecular (room-temperature) process.* Using a computer (no PCs, yet) was often taught as part of the Quantum Chemistry course, used, for example, to model a particle in a box with various types of barriers. Rudimentary coding was taught to all - professors in these fields typically spent their time (actually that of grad students) creating 20 Kg decks of punch-cards to do their theoretical work. Computer usage permeated the field as soon as they became available. Computers were a great recreational outlet, and the "new" 16-bit A/D converters and a PC/AT gave me a chance to teach a computer to do my work for me. And then, simulation of idealized chemical interactions. Always more cpu-intensive: always requiring rethinking code to make it run faster. This was very serious business: a model that would run on a modern PC in 10 minutes might take 6 cpu-hours. Ultimately, life took various turns - I ended up living where no work exists for a research chemist - and ended up writing POS for Dry Cleaning OH how the might hath fallen! Things are better now. But life without A CO2-TEA laser to blast local vermin is just not the same. No di-methyl formamide to dissolve set-epoxy glue. Nor seperatory funnels to produce top quality pepper oil using fresh peppers. And the UN inspectors finding a cave where Sadaam's scientists had research papers on enriching uranium - including by use of lasers. *for those of you how must know, the compound used was Uranium Hexamethoxide.
"Every now and then, the past moves ahead of us in order that we might face it." - Balboos HaGadol
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
CS is vitally important to the success of any project
Phhbbbt! (that's me making a rasberry sound at you). Utter tripe and hogwash! Degrees and committees don't make sucessful projects, good people do.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
Amen!
MrPlankton
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I first learned FORTRAN 1 back in high school in the dark ages, but then the local computer didn't have enough memory for a FORTRAN compiler, so our class learned to program in assembly for an IBM 1620. In college I studied petroleum engineering and took a FORTRAN course. That was the extent of my formal computer training. However, I worked with some great CS grad students and learned as much as possible from them. I wrote much of the software needed for my MS Thesis in Algol. Later, when PC's came around, I learned Basic, then Pascal, then C, then Forth, then Prolog, then C++, now C#, and probably a few programming languages I've forgotten. I've also read about every book on computer science I could get my hands on. I found that having the basic machine architecture in mind helps me write efficient numerical code and after beating structure and objects into my head, I can learn most any language fairly quickly. I also got into real time programming and automated control systems in grad school - from and engineering perspective, not programming or computer science - there was no IT back then. Since then I've developed several commercial real time systems (mostly programming in C and optimizing in assembly) and play around with PICs and other dinky little chips for fun. My main regret of not having studied more formally is that I sometimes feel I lack some overall design and architecture. Although I've learned a lot of those sorts of things over the years, I know I benefit from working with a team. I benefit from them and they benefit from my basic understanding and ability to code lightning fast numerical algorithms. Ahhh, if only I didn't have to earn a living. I could have stayed in school forever and still be learning!
The Petrogeek
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A lot of persons in the business application domain insist that formal education in computer science is not necessary. However, I am not one of them. CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayOf course, I'm nowhere in the league of programmers, but as it stands I don't have the alphabet soup of letters behind my name as far as training. In my naive youth, I would fluff it all off with "Why should I pay 40k only to make 30k in salary?". So I never went to college. I went from high-school, to pilot, to mother :) With that said, I've been a technical writer since the mid 90's with web-design, digital graphics, advertising and technical support in my list of job duties. All of it self-taught. I think the only certification I received was in cable installation for the school system I was working for. I wish I had the formal training, because I have found that I probably would command a higher initial salary, but my dedication and quality of work generally prove me to be a diamond-in-the-ruff.
S.Nowlin ----------------------- The journey is straight, it's the path that is twisted. Oh and did you hear? There is no spoon, only sporks.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I've had 2 years of community colleage in which I learned to run a sorter and 401 tab machine using punch cards I also learned 360 assembly language, PL/1 and Cobol in 1 year which did not cover all that much. The 2 year degree got me my first job after that It had little value. I've been in the IT business for 38 years. I had thought about getting a 4 year degree in computer science but found that all I would have learned is how to write a cobol compiler and code my own rs232 protocal. I did not think that would be all that usful so I decided to pass and make money. Dave Hilpert
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I have a bit of a mixture. An electronic apprentiship, some formal university computer science training (but not to degree level), and lots of self taught knowledge. As a developer where a lot of self teaching is involved, I think there are 2 very significant parts of my training, both of them from university ... 1. The formal training involving hardware elements and macro level machine code (CS300), leading to developing a simple compiler. (on DEC - PDP systems) 2. Internal data structures using C (CS340) (lots of indirection involved - really hammering pointers). Having a good grounding in these 2 helps a great deal when learning new languages like C#, which is what I do now. I work with a group, and have worked with others in the past, who have not benefitted from these basics, and I find the difference in understanding what's going on when the programs execute and how systems hang together almost screams out. I am one of the 'old boys' whose learning started before moving into the OO world. For me it was an easy switch, but I can easily see it being difficult for mainframe cobol developers. My route was C, C++, C# (with basket weaving, better known as VB in there as well). I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code. Ken Ede - lead developer - Europa Group.
Kenneth Ede wrote:
I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code.
I would venture to guess that that's a safe assumption.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I have to take some offense at the negative comments about older programmers (I'm 51), former mainframe programmers (I did 8 or 9 years on IBM big irons, from Sytem 360 up), and former COBOL programmers (I did COBOL for 5 years). None of those things has any real bearing on the quality of a programmer or his/her product. Other factors, such as the ability to come up with creative solutions to problems, the willingness and desire (even eagerness) to learn new technologies, and the capability to work well with customers are much more important, and those traits are just a lacking in many young, microcomputer based, C# programmers. Now to the original question: I have little or no "formal training". I took a 9-week course in COBOL in the USMC (I was doing Fortran before that, self-taught) and a couple of 1-7 day classes in various subjects are the only "formal" technical training I've had. I also had little formal higher-level eduction. I've taken a dozen or so college classes. Only two were in computer-related subjects. In one of the classes the instructor told me I could have taught (he worked across the hall from me for 3 years when I was in the Marine Corps, and he was right). I got bored with the computer classes and switched to a broader curriculm including accounting, english and economics. I had a 4.0 average when I got tired of going to school part-time, working full-time, and trying to be a husband and father as well, and dropped out. I've worked with programmers that had degrees in other fields (one with a PhD in Physics), and I could program rings around any of them any day of the week. For most of the last 30 years I have successfully made a living at programming. I've taught myself everything from PL/I and S360 Assembler to HTML, CSS, XML, C, C++, VB, Perl, PHP, SQL, a smattering of x86 machine language, and another dozen or two acronyms. In spite of my mainframe and COBOL background I've never had trouble picking up and using new technologies. I even "get" Object-Oriented Programming. I've never had trouble dealing with users, customers, and other technical people either. I've developed course materials for a couple of 1-14 day computer classes for the US Government. I've taught several different computer classes at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And I've helped others in countless other ways. I've been a Tek-Tips Tipmaster of the Month. Customers and non-technical users consider me to be one of the best technical people they've worked with because I have the ability to explain things
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I've had 2 years of community colleage in which I learned to run a sorter and 401 tab machine using punch cards I also learned 360 assembly language, PL/1 and Cobol in 1 year which did not cover all that much. The 2 year degree got me my first job after that It had little value. I've been in the IT business for 38 years. I had thought about getting a 4 year degree in computer science but found that all I would have learned is how to write a cobol compiler and code my own rs232 protocal. I did not think that would be all that usful so I decided to pass and make money. Dave Hilpert
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Semi-Serious question : What is IT ? Are you including programmers, developers ? For me, an IT professional is a glorified sys-admin. I have a bachelor in Computer Science; most of the courses were theoretical courses , and all of the programming work was done on specialized languages (prolog, Simula, VHDL, Miranda ...). There was NO C or C++ courses or stuff like that; or even less sys-admin related courses.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
I believe the question was targeted to developers/programmers. I’ve had 15 years IT experience (in various capacities) and my story is kind of amusing. My B.Sc. was in Management with minors in Finance & Systems Analysis. Because overall I had done poorly at Math in high school, I avoided Physics, Computer Science or any of the so called “hard science” subjects like the plague. I did poorly in Math but well in Accounting; while I sucked at Math, I could count money and manage resources well. From my summer jobs and family upbringing, I learnt a lot about customer service, a strong work ethic, and managing resources well. These traits and my accounting background gained me favor with managers in my early jobs. In my 2nd job out of college, I was forcibly promoted laterally into IT management (out of a marketing consultancy position) by my boss; hey, it was either that or be laid off. The thinking by the rest of managers was that I was young, hard working, and had shown a dispensation to learning new skills well, and none of them wanted the dreaded IT position. (Things change too fast in IT for them). The position change was needed quickly, and it would take too long for a new hire to learn the culture & scope of the company. (This was a small, donor funded development agency with a fair amount of influence in the local market; strategic directions could change suddenly if conditions with our major donor changed). My “IT management” role actually meant I was “head cook & bottle washer” for all IT related things, or anything deemed “technical” by management. My role included systems administration, systems analysis, database design, fixing the photocopier, desktop support, changing fuses, … you get the point. I became known as “the IT guy that’s easy to talk to”. I insisted on not speaking IT jargon to my clients; I always answered questions by relating it to business needs and showing how the technology would help profits & corporate goals, and I was strongly customer service driven. The result: management sent me to a few IT short courses, and gave me time off to study IT topics privately. I eventually left that job to work as a senior programmer (Java, C++ & VB6). In summary. I’m primarily self trained, but more importantly, it’s my “soft skills” that really helped me to succeed. :)
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BS Computer Science, 1981; MS also Comp Sci, 2000. It learned me nowledge!!
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I had formal training. helped a fair amount. did all the relational database and design stuff, drew pretty pictures with flow charts and stuff, and then eventually got onto the actual programming. did JAVA, and then a half language of C# (ie, without database, like serious basics of it). I then wrote an application that my dad had wanted. suddenly, SQL made sense, I didn't find it to be the major mission it was. I was programming in sharp develop, and my knowledge of syntax grew fairly well. I wasn't reading out of the book anymore =P. learnt asp.net at my current job, have gotten fairly decent at it. but anywho, I feel that the formal training I received helped me understand programming more than if I hadn't had it. after all, alot of what we look for these days is syntax to do something, but understand the logic behind it =P anywho, that's my 2 cents worth.
I hadn't really thought that much about it, but I guess my start with web (HTML then ASP with VB Script) was helpful in that the way of the web was you see something you like, you tear it apart to see how it was done and use it in your own stuff. I guess that really helped later with more sophisticated languages. When you don't know how to do something you find something similar and massage it to do what you need, and before you know it you've learned a lot of syntax and how things work. I picked up C# syntax so fast I didn't even realize I'd learned it all. Coming from Java, I just made a mental dictionary of translations to begin with. i.e. package = namespace, StringBuffer = StringBuilder, properties? Thank God no more get & set methods. The intro Java class I took really gave me a good head start with Java, then jumping head first into a Java job in Japan really solidified it for me.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I have an honours math degree, with a minor in CS. To get a minor you just needed two courses. The first one I took was the CS core programming course, and I actually had a hard time getting accepted into it because the dean thought it was too hard for normal non CS majors. It was mostly Pascal syntax. At the end of the course I told the professor that I felt I was wasting my time so I didn't want to take any more CS courses. I took one in numerical methods instead. Through friends, I learned later that CS courses got more interesting as they got more advanced. But when I graduated with math and no job prospects, I started hacking on my Atari 1040ST. I landed a job as a programmer six months later and I've been earning my living by programming for the last 20 years. The math has helped me do 3D graphics and image processing, but I wish I had a better foundation for compilers and graph theory. This is a really flakey career. You've got to want it badly, because education alone is only going to carry you for the first couple of years. After that much time passes, the industry is going to pull the rug out from under you; you'd better be ready to learn new stuff. - Owen -
Yeah and they've stepped up the frequency of rug pulls quite a bit in the last few years. Good point.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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Entered the computer world in 1972, starting with a Dec PDP-8, using its machine language. NO formal training at all, dug it out from the very few books, in fact found only two Dec books to work with, yes, still have the little books, which are very dog eared and falling apart. My first program I bit switched it in using the front panel switches on the CPU. The box had 8K of memory! From that start, developed the programs to run the entire scope of programs for the company, which was not a small company, example running two 600 lines per minute printers full blast at least 12 hours per day for reports, remember everything had to come out on paper. WHY no formal training – the Universities where running so far behind in technologies compared to the real world of business!! keith
keithblack wrote:
the Universities where running so far behind in technologies compared to the real world of business!
I think in most cases that's never really changed. In my Java class (1997 I think), for a test we had to create an applet within the hour that grew a red circle from a point, then shrink back down to a point and do it again in blue, then cycle. At the end of the hour mine worked, but it took about 10 minutes to cycle. When I got home I ran it on my machine and saw a flickering purple circle. Wow, I entered the world in 1972. I envy your experience.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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I have a bit of a mixture. An electronic apprentiship, some formal university computer science training (but not to degree level), and lots of self taught knowledge. As a developer where a lot of self teaching is involved, I think there are 2 very significant parts of my training, both of them from university ... 1. The formal training involving hardware elements and macro level machine code (CS300), leading to developing a simple compiler. (on DEC - PDP systems) 2. Internal data structures using C (CS340) (lots of indirection involved - really hammering pointers). Having a good grounding in these 2 helps a great deal when learning new languages like C#, which is what I do now. I work with a group, and have worked with others in the past, who have not benefitted from these basics, and I find the difference in understanding what's going on when the programs execute and how systems hang together almost screams out. I am one of the 'old boys' whose learning started before moving into the OO world. For me it was an easy switch, but I can easily see it being difficult for mainframe cobol developers. My route was C, C++, C# (with basket weaving, better known as VB in there as well). I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code. Ken Ede - lead developer - Europa Group.
Kenneth Ede wrote:
I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code.
You have to realize that a college is not in the business of making employees, they are in the business of selling degrees. The degree program is difficult enough to show dedication, but there are no guarentees anything you learn will be useful. As a company we find ourselves having to push the schools to provide specific instruction through incentives to the school such that we can get valuable skills out of the school. In most cases the school would far rather make the program just hard enough to be worthwhile, but limiting the value of their students is really irrelevant, unless, of course, you make it worth their while to do it the right way.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
MrPlankton
MrPlankton wrote:
Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
Here's where I will disagree. Although a degree does not absolutely prove anything as far as skill, only your talent and ability can do that. A degree demonstrates dedication to finishing what you start, and it has a value on paper that allows for promotions. Our company has a requirement for 75% degree on the hiring block. So for every one like me who does not have a degree, they have to have three BS's, two MS's or a PhD to offset my lack of degree. There is also a limit on payscale based on degree. I never said the degree isn't worth the time, it simply doesn't prove anything about your skill as a programmer. Here you could make nearly 50% more as a maximum salary for the exact same job (higher than me, not necessarily higher than you where ever you are now). Now that is maximum, what you earn, you earn by doing the work and demonstrating that skill. Still, the lack of a degree is a problem, so don't knock the degree as a complete waste.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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As my mini-bio notes, in real life I was a research chemist. The real thing - including doing the first Uranium Isotope Enrichment using lasers in a molecular (room-temperature) process.* Using a computer (no PCs, yet) was often taught as part of the Quantum Chemistry course, used, for example, to model a particle in a box with various types of barriers. Rudimentary coding was taught to all - professors in these fields typically spent their time (actually that of grad students) creating 20 Kg decks of punch-cards to do their theoretical work. Computer usage permeated the field as soon as they became available. Computers were a great recreational outlet, and the "new" 16-bit A/D converters and a PC/AT gave me a chance to teach a computer to do my work for me. And then, simulation of idealized chemical interactions. Always more cpu-intensive: always requiring rethinking code to make it run faster. This was very serious business: a model that would run on a modern PC in 10 minutes might take 6 cpu-hours. Ultimately, life took various turns - I ended up living where no work exists for a research chemist - and ended up writing POS for Dry Cleaning OH how the might hath fallen! Things are better now. But life without A CO2-TEA laser to blast local vermin is just not the same. No di-methyl formamide to dissolve set-epoxy glue. Nor seperatory funnels to produce top quality pepper oil using fresh peppers. And the UN inspectors finding a cave where Sadaam's scientists had research papers on enriching uranium - including by use of lasers. *for those of you how must know, the compound used was Uranium Hexamethoxide.
"Every now and then, the past moves ahead of us in order that we might face it." - Balboos HaGadol
Balboos wrote:
Things are better now. But life without A CO2-TEA laser to blast local vermin is just not the same.
You just need to move to HEL. They always need another chemical laser in HEL.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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A lot of persons in the business application domain insist that formal education in computer science is not necessary. However, I am not one of them. CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Putty and Paint a Carpenter do make.
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I live here in the Pacific Northwest about 30 miles south of 'Microsponge'. IT here encompasses programmers, developers, sys-admin, database admin, security specialists, etc. If you don't have a piece of paper with BS written on it then you ain't s**t. I'm 44 years old and I have over 20 years real life work experience in the computer industry and it don't mean squat cause I don't have my degree yet.(which I'm working on now)
That's not true. If you have 10 years experience they don't care about the degree. I've turned down multiple offers in Bellevue and I have no degree. I would say that you don't have the right experience. Or you don't sell yourself. Anyone with tcp/threading/c++/templates AND .NET will thrive there.
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I have to take some offense at the negative comments about older programmers (I'm 51), former mainframe programmers (I did 8 or 9 years on IBM big irons, from Sytem 360 up), and former COBOL programmers (I did COBOL for 5 years). None of those things has any real bearing on the quality of a programmer or his/her product. Other factors, such as the ability to come up with creative solutions to problems, the willingness and desire (even eagerness) to learn new technologies, and the capability to work well with customers are much more important, and those traits are just a lacking in many young, microcomputer based, C# programmers. Now to the original question: I have little or no "formal training". I took a 9-week course in COBOL in the USMC (I was doing Fortran before that, self-taught) and a couple of 1-7 day classes in various subjects are the only "formal" technical training I've had. I also had little formal higher-level eduction. I've taken a dozen or so college classes. Only two were in computer-related subjects. In one of the classes the instructor told me I could have taught (he worked across the hall from me for 3 years when I was in the Marine Corps, and he was right). I got bored with the computer classes and switched to a broader curriculm including accounting, english and economics. I had a 4.0 average when I got tired of going to school part-time, working full-time, and trying to be a husband and father as well, and dropped out. I've worked with programmers that had degrees in other fields (one with a PhD in Physics), and I could program rings around any of them any day of the week. For most of the last 30 years I have successfully made a living at programming. I've taught myself everything from PL/I and S360 Assembler to HTML, CSS, XML, C, C++, VB, Perl, PHP, SQL, a smattering of x86 machine language, and another dozen or two acronyms. In spite of my mainframe and COBOL background I've never had trouble picking up and using new technologies. I even "get" Object-Oriented Programming. I've never had trouble dealing with users, customers, and other technical people either. I've developed course materials for a couple of 1-14 day computer classes for the US Government. I've taught several different computer classes at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And I've helped others in countless other ways. I've been a Tek-Tips Tipmaster of the Month. Customers and non-technical users consider me to be one of the best technical people they've worked with because I have the ability to explain things
tsdragon wrote:
I have to take some offense at the negative comments about older programmers (I'm 51)
I meant that only as a wide generalization, no offense intended. I do know some older programmers, and though it is true to some extent that they still have a mindset centered around old school methods, they all have invaluable experience and much more knowledge of how things came to be the way they are now. I really meant to disrespect.
tsdragon wrote:
explain things to them clearly without "talking down to them". That's a ability that seems clearly lacking in younger programmers and those with college degrees
That's a good point. And I can actually relate, though I'm only 35. Younger people that have a little computer knowledge do tend to think they are worlds beyond older people just because they've grown up with it. Even at 35 it's annoying to have some snot nosed 17 year old at Best Buy try to tell me that my heat sync was making noises, not my processor fan.
tsdragon wrote:
If you don't love it, you're going to be a mediocre programmer no matter how many classes or degrees you have
Well said.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.