Quick Poll
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Semi-Serious question : What is IT ? Are you including programmers, developers ? For me, an IT professional is a glorified sys-admin. I have a bachelor in Computer Science; most of the courses were theoretical courses , and all of the programming work was done on specialized languages (prolog, Simula, VHDL, Miranda ...). There was NO C or C++ courses or stuff like that; or even less sys-admin related courses.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
I believe the question was targeted to developers/programmers. I’ve had 15 years IT experience (in various capacities) and my story is kind of amusing. My B.Sc. was in Management with minors in Finance & Systems Analysis. Because overall I had done poorly at Math in high school, I avoided Physics, Computer Science or any of the so called “hard science” subjects like the plague. I did poorly in Math but well in Accounting; while I sucked at Math, I could count money and manage resources well. From my summer jobs and family upbringing, I learnt a lot about customer service, a strong work ethic, and managing resources well. These traits and my accounting background gained me favor with managers in my early jobs. In my 2nd job out of college, I was forcibly promoted laterally into IT management (out of a marketing consultancy position) by my boss; hey, it was either that or be laid off. The thinking by the rest of managers was that I was young, hard working, and had shown a dispensation to learning new skills well, and none of them wanted the dreaded IT position. (Things change too fast in IT for them). The position change was needed quickly, and it would take too long for a new hire to learn the culture & scope of the company. (This was a small, donor funded development agency with a fair amount of influence in the local market; strategic directions could change suddenly if conditions with our major donor changed). My “IT management” role actually meant I was “head cook & bottle washer” for all IT related things, or anything deemed “technical” by management. My role included systems administration, systems analysis, database design, fixing the photocopier, desktop support, changing fuses, … you get the point. I became known as “the IT guy that’s easy to talk to”. I insisted on not speaking IT jargon to my clients; I always answered questions by relating it to business needs and showing how the technology would help profits & corporate goals, and I was strongly customer service driven. The result: management sent me to a few IT short courses, and gave me time off to study IT topics privately. I eventually left that job to work as a senior programmer (Java, C++ & VB6). In summary. I’m primarily self trained, but more importantly, it’s my “soft skills” that really helped me to succeed. :)
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
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BS Computer Science, 1981; MS also Comp Sci, 2000. It learned me nowledge!!
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I had formal training. helped a fair amount. did all the relational database and design stuff, drew pretty pictures with flow charts and stuff, and then eventually got onto the actual programming. did JAVA, and then a half language of C# (ie, without database, like serious basics of it). I then wrote an application that my dad had wanted. suddenly, SQL made sense, I didn't find it to be the major mission it was. I was programming in sharp develop, and my knowledge of syntax grew fairly well. I wasn't reading out of the book anymore =P. learnt asp.net at my current job, have gotten fairly decent at it. but anywho, I feel that the formal training I received helped me understand programming more than if I hadn't had it. after all, alot of what we look for these days is syntax to do something, but understand the logic behind it =P anywho, that's my 2 cents worth.
I hadn't really thought that much about it, but I guess my start with web (HTML then ASP with VB Script) was helpful in that the way of the web was you see something you like, you tear it apart to see how it was done and use it in your own stuff. I guess that really helped later with more sophisticated languages. When you don't know how to do something you find something similar and massage it to do what you need, and before you know it you've learned a lot of syntax and how things work. I picked up C# syntax so fast I didn't even realize I'd learned it all. Coming from Java, I just made a mental dictionary of translations to begin with. i.e. package = namespace, StringBuffer = StringBuilder, properties? Thank God no more get & set methods. The intro Java class I took really gave me a good head start with Java, then jumping head first into a Java job in Japan really solidified it for me.
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I have an honours math degree, with a minor in CS. To get a minor you just needed two courses. The first one I took was the CS core programming course, and I actually had a hard time getting accepted into it because the dean thought it was too hard for normal non CS majors. It was mostly Pascal syntax. At the end of the course I told the professor that I felt I was wasting my time so I didn't want to take any more CS courses. I took one in numerical methods instead. Through friends, I learned later that CS courses got more interesting as they got more advanced. But when I graduated with math and no job prospects, I started hacking on my Atari 1040ST. I landed a job as a programmer six months later and I've been earning my living by programming for the last 20 years. The math has helped me do 3D graphics and image processing, but I wish I had a better foundation for compilers and graph theory. This is a really flakey career. You've got to want it badly, because education alone is only going to carry you for the first couple of years. After that much time passes, the industry is going to pull the rug out from under you; you'd better be ready to learn new stuff. - Owen -
Yeah and they've stepped up the frequency of rug pulls quite a bit in the last few years. Good point.
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Entered the computer world in 1972, starting with a Dec PDP-8, using its machine language. NO formal training at all, dug it out from the very few books, in fact found only two Dec books to work with, yes, still have the little books, which are very dog eared and falling apart. My first program I bit switched it in using the front panel switches on the CPU. The box had 8K of memory! From that start, developed the programs to run the entire scope of programs for the company, which was not a small company, example running two 600 lines per minute printers full blast at least 12 hours per day for reports, remember everything had to come out on paper. WHY no formal training – the Universities where running so far behind in technologies compared to the real world of business!! keith
keithblack wrote:
the Universities where running so far behind in technologies compared to the real world of business!
I think in most cases that's never really changed. In my Java class (1997 I think), for a test we had to create an applet within the hour that grew a red circle from a point, then shrink back down to a point and do it again in blue, then cycle. At the end of the hour mine worked, but it took about 10 minutes to cycle. When I got home I ran it on my machine and saw a flickering purple circle. Wow, I entered the world in 1972. I envy your experience.
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I have a bit of a mixture. An electronic apprentiship, some formal university computer science training (but not to degree level), and lots of self taught knowledge. As a developer where a lot of self teaching is involved, I think there are 2 very significant parts of my training, both of them from university ... 1. The formal training involving hardware elements and macro level machine code (CS300), leading to developing a simple compiler. (on DEC - PDP systems) 2. Internal data structures using C (CS340) (lots of indirection involved - really hammering pointers). Having a good grounding in these 2 helps a great deal when learning new languages like C#, which is what I do now. I work with a group, and have worked with others in the past, who have not benefitted from these basics, and I find the difference in understanding what's going on when the programs execute and how systems hang together almost screams out. I am one of the 'old boys' whose learning started before moving into the OO world. For me it was an easy switch, but I can easily see it being difficult for mainframe cobol developers. My route was C, C++, C# (with basket weaving, better known as VB in there as well). I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code. Ken Ede - lead developer - Europa Group.
Kenneth Ede wrote:
I also wonder if starting to learn programming at the end - i.e. starting with something like Java, does developers a limiting disservice instead of starting at the beginning with good old C, or something even more basic like machine code.
You have to realize that a college is not in the business of making employees, they are in the business of selling degrees. The degree program is difficult enough to show dedication, but there are no guarentees anything you learn will be useful. As a company we find ourselves having to push the schools to provide specific instruction through incentives to the school such that we can get valuable skills out of the school. In most cases the school would far rather make the program just hard enough to be worthwhile, but limiting the value of their students is really irrelevant, unless, of course, you make it worth their while to do it the right way.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
MrPlankton
MrPlankton wrote:
Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
Here's where I will disagree. Although a degree does not absolutely prove anything as far as skill, only your talent and ability can do that. A degree demonstrates dedication to finishing what you start, and it has a value on paper that allows for promotions. Our company has a requirement for 75% degree on the hiring block. So for every one like me who does not have a degree, they have to have three BS's, two MS's or a PhD to offset my lack of degree. There is also a limit on payscale based on degree. I never said the degree isn't worth the time, it simply doesn't prove anything about your skill as a programmer. Here you could make nearly 50% more as a maximum salary for the exact same job (higher than me, not necessarily higher than you where ever you are now). Now that is maximum, what you earn, you earn by doing the work and demonstrating that skill. Still, the lack of a degree is a problem, so don't knock the degree as a complete waste.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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As my mini-bio notes, in real life I was a research chemist. The real thing - including doing the first Uranium Isotope Enrichment using lasers in a molecular (room-temperature) process.* Using a computer (no PCs, yet) was often taught as part of the Quantum Chemistry course, used, for example, to model a particle in a box with various types of barriers. Rudimentary coding was taught to all - professors in these fields typically spent their time (actually that of grad students) creating 20 Kg decks of punch-cards to do their theoretical work. Computer usage permeated the field as soon as they became available. Computers were a great recreational outlet, and the "new" 16-bit A/D converters and a PC/AT gave me a chance to teach a computer to do my work for me. And then, simulation of idealized chemical interactions. Always more cpu-intensive: always requiring rethinking code to make it run faster. This was very serious business: a model that would run on a modern PC in 10 minutes might take 6 cpu-hours. Ultimately, life took various turns - I ended up living where no work exists for a research chemist - and ended up writing POS for Dry Cleaning OH how the might hath fallen! Things are better now. But life without A CO2-TEA laser to blast local vermin is just not the same. No di-methyl formamide to dissolve set-epoxy glue. Nor seperatory funnels to produce top quality pepper oil using fresh peppers. And the UN inspectors finding a cave where Sadaam's scientists had research papers on enriching uranium - including by use of lasers. *for those of you how must know, the compound used was Uranium Hexamethoxide.
"Every now and then, the past moves ahead of us in order that we might face it." - Balboos HaGadol
Balboos wrote:
Things are better now. But life without A CO2-TEA laser to blast local vermin is just not the same.
You just need to move to HEL. They always need another chemical laser in HEL.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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A lot of persons in the business application domain insist that formal education in computer science is not necessary. However, I am not one of them. CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayEnnis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
CS is vitally important to the success of any project.
Putty and Paint a Carpenter do make.
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I have to take some offense at the negative comments about older programmers (I'm 51), former mainframe programmers (I did 8 or 9 years on IBM big irons, from Sytem 360 up), and former COBOL programmers (I did COBOL for 5 years). None of those things has any real bearing on the quality of a programmer or his/her product. Other factors, such as the ability to come up with creative solutions to problems, the willingness and desire (even eagerness) to learn new technologies, and the capability to work well with customers are much more important, and those traits are just a lacking in many young, microcomputer based, C# programmers. Now to the original question: I have little or no "formal training". I took a 9-week course in COBOL in the USMC (I was doing Fortran before that, self-taught) and a couple of 1-7 day classes in various subjects are the only "formal" technical training I've had. I also had little formal higher-level eduction. I've taken a dozen or so college classes. Only two were in computer-related subjects. In one of the classes the instructor told me I could have taught (he worked across the hall from me for 3 years when I was in the Marine Corps, and he was right). I got bored with the computer classes and switched to a broader curriculm including accounting, english and economics. I had a 4.0 average when I got tired of going to school part-time, working full-time, and trying to be a husband and father as well, and dropped out. I've worked with programmers that had degrees in other fields (one with a PhD in Physics), and I could program rings around any of them any day of the week. For most of the last 30 years I have successfully made a living at programming. I've taught myself everything from PL/I and S360 Assembler to HTML, CSS, XML, C, C++, VB, Perl, PHP, SQL, a smattering of x86 machine language, and another dozen or two acronyms. In spite of my mainframe and COBOL background I've never had trouble picking up and using new technologies. I even "get" Object-Oriented Programming. I've never had trouble dealing with users, customers, and other technical people either. I've developed course materials for a couple of 1-14 day computer classes for the US Government. I've taught several different computer classes at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And I've helped others in countless other ways. I've been a Tek-Tips Tipmaster of the Month. Customers and non-technical users consider me to be one of the best technical people they've worked with because I have the ability to explain things
tsdragon wrote:
I have to take some offense at the negative comments about older programmers (I'm 51)
I meant that only as a wide generalization, no offense intended. I do know some older programmers, and though it is true to some extent that they still have a mindset centered around old school methods, they all have invaluable experience and much more knowledge of how things came to be the way they are now. I really meant to disrespect.
tsdragon wrote:
explain things to them clearly without "talking down to them". That's a ability that seems clearly lacking in younger programmers and those with college degrees
That's a good point. And I can actually relate, though I'm only 35. Younger people that have a little computer knowledge do tend to think they are worlds beyond older people just because they've grown up with it. Even at 35 it's annoying to have some snot nosed 17 year old at Best Buy try to tell me that my heat sync was making noises, not my processor fan.
tsdragon wrote:
If you don't love it, you're going to be a mediocre programmer no matter how many classes or degrees you have
Well said.
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I live here in the Pacific Northwest about 30 miles south of 'Microsponge'. IT here encompasses programmers, developers, sys-admin, database admin, security specialists, etc. If you don't have a piece of paper with BS written on it then you ain't s**t. I'm 44 years old and I have over 20 years real life work experience in the computer industry and it don't mean squat cause I don't have my degree yet.(which I'm working on now)
That's not true. If you have 10 years experience they don't care about the degree. I've turned down multiple offers in Bellevue and I have no degree. I would say that you don't have the right experience. Or you don't sell yourself. Anyone with tcp/threading/c++/templates AND .NET will thrive there.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Self taught in computers, then again when I started punch cards and vaccum tubes were still being used. Portable computers was a NOVA computer in a rack with wheels.. and some small company just came out with the 2002. TTL was becoming the standard, Bill was still in school and Darthmouth developed a language called Basic. High speed terminals were teletypes with 110 baud modems. RC
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I have a BS degree in Computer Science and written programs in over a dozen different languages. If someone tells me they are a "insert programming language here" programmer I worry. My experience is that this is where a formal education helps. You are exposed to multiple languages, the domains where they are used and the reason they are effective. A programmer can learn SQL but they will be more effective if they have also been exposed Relational Algebra and Relational Calculas which is the mathematics behind the language. Knowing why and how a language is created is a powerfull tool when it comes to learning a new language. There are competent, even excellent, programmers that are self taught but in my opinion they are the exception rather than the rule.
Wambach wrote:
There are competent, even excellent, programmers that are self taught but in my opinion they are the exception rather than the rule.
I don't know. I know only what we do, and we have both degreed and non-degreed. But I am a bit surprised people keep saying, well "formal education provides the math" or "formal education provides the structure". All of those the programmer can choose to learn. Sure, I hated math, I was the kid who believed computers were going to do my math for me. That and some issues at home, drove me out on the market early. I discovered within 6 months I had to do the math for the computers. still am. Without a formal degree, I still do the physics, the calculus, and even a smattering of various engineering works. You find what is needed, you find the answer. Doesn't matter if you have to find the research in a doctorate thesis, or a published book, or go back to school. You find the answer and use it. The difference comes down to the programmers who want to find the answer, and the ones who do not. Even formal trainging cannot save you from the latter, they will eventually forget anything they might have learned. The former, whether they come from formal education or not, will continue to strive for the answers that solve problems. If you are truly lucky, you get someone with enough skill and creativity to solve problems that have not been solved yet. That then pushes the company to the forefront of technology, the bleeding edge so to speak. Neither school, nor on the job training can successfully predict who will have that kind of creativity. You can encourage it, or discourage it, and most colleges I have seen discourage it until at least the PhD level. If you survive that long, you are allowed to get creative, if you want to. The primary advantage to a formal education without respect to skill, is that if you stay into PhD and never gain the skills to work in the work force, you can always teach at the same school you graduated from.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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That's not true. If you have 10 years experience they don't care about the degree. I've turned down multiple offers in Bellevue and I have no degree. I would say that you don't have the right experience. Or you don't sell yourself. Anyone with tcp/threading/c++/templates AND .NET will thrive there.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
That's not true. If you have 10 years experience they don't care about the degree.
I would take the middle ground. The degree matters, but the experience matters more. The degree does open doors for money, as others have explained. So although you could get a job without a degree, you might not be able to live off that job in some areas. When I got my first job, I turned down an offer of $13k in the valley of quartz, no one could have lived off that in California, not even in 1985. Now had I been able to survive, through a spouse, or other income, I could probably make a lot more. but cost of living would be higher too. There would be similar limits to my income based on education unless I got into the entertainment business which has less formal structure to its payscale. No, experience is worth a lot to an employer, but so is a degree. At 10 years the experience is usually worth more, unless the market is saturated in that area. In which case, you move to an area without saturation.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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MrPlankton wrote:
Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
Here's where I will disagree. Although a degree does not absolutely prove anything as far as skill, only your talent and ability can do that. A degree demonstrates dedication to finishing what you start, and it has a value on paper that allows for promotions. Our company has a requirement for 75% degree on the hiring block. So for every one like me who does not have a degree, they have to have three BS's, two MS's or a PhD to offset my lack of degree. There is also a limit on payscale based on degree. I never said the degree isn't worth the time, it simply doesn't prove anything about your skill as a programmer. Here you could make nearly 50% more as a maximum salary for the exact same job (higher than me, not necessarily higher than you where ever you are now). Now that is maximum, what you earn, you earn by doing the work and demonstrating that skill. Still, the lack of a degree is a problem, so don't knock the degree as a complete waste.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I understand. However, you are describing your company's policy, arbitrarily made by someone in HR or management who has no way of knowing whether paying a 50% premium for a degree makes a difference in the quality talent they recruit. If someone makes the argument that "formally trained" programmers are a better value, I would like to see the statistics on that.
MrPlankton
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I'm completely self-taught and have been a programmer for 36 years. Began with Fortran and quickly found comfort with assembly language, modifying a batch operating system. When the other teenagers were hanging out, I was in the computer room. After 15 years I moved on to C, then to C++, Cold Fusion, and currently VB.NET. Working with assembly language and pouring over real operating system code was a valuable training ground, in addition to reading everything I could find on computers in general. There have been a few points in my career when it seemed that I could've benefited from some knowledge of theory, but I honestly don't think lack of that knowledge has held me back. Knowledge of algorithms may have helped with sorting or hashing, but since I hate anything math-related anyway I don't know if I would've absorbed much anyway. As one of the "old guys" I'd like to address the perception that we don't adapt. We do. But remember that we have seen productivity tools, application frameworks, and technologies come and go, so we may not automatically embrace the hot new thing just because it's new. Personally, I'm sometimes wistful for the old days when I built virtually everything from scratch. Yes I know that time is money, but what has kept me in the field is the opportunity to be creative as well. So I'm somewhat resistant to structured development and the push to develop code faster (not necessarily better!). Edward...
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Been programming since 1979. I "have no fomal twaining". I am not taking online I.T. courses and am learning almost nothing new. In some cases, there might be a hole in your knowledge that gets filled in. But nothing that is immediately useful. Book and Application learning are the key to this field in my opinion. These people who weed people out of interviews based on college or certification, are myopic. Some managers are like that and you will never get the job. So it depends on whether you look at the world as: "Most managers look for college in the field and/or certifications", or "Most managers look for applications and experience". I was in a flame war with someone here that was clearly a cert guy. I received all my jobs without college or cert. I am currently a team lead with a $9B market cap global manufacturer. They don't seem to mind. However, I won't make it to Director unless I have a B.S. degree. That's my view, not the company's statement.
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I understand. However, you are describing your company's policy, arbitrarily made by someone in HR or management who has no way of knowing whether paying a 50% premium for a degree makes a difference in the quality talent they recruit. If someone makes the argument that "formally trained" programmers are a better value, I would like to see the statistics on that.
MrPlankton
MrPlankton wrote:
If someone makes the argument that "formally trained" programmers are a better value, I would like to see the statistics on that.
I never said that. However, it does look "good" on paper. Los Alamos, NM claims the highest PhD per square mile than anywhere else in the region. Occasionally they claim the nation too, and its even true once in a while. It looks good on paper, so they get the money, so they hire more PhDs, which looks good on paper, which gets the money, etc. Eventually if you hire enough you will find someone will talent. I am not saying a degree makes you better, but it is a fact of life we deal with every day that a degreed person has a larger potential for making more money than non-degreed. What each does with their potential is completely up to the programmer. A degreed person can make less money because he fails to meet his potential.
MrPlankton wrote:
However, you are describing your company's policy, arbitrarily made by someone in HR or management who has no way of knowing whether paying a 50% premium for a degree makes a difference in the quality talent they recruit.
Well, actually it is US government policity that is required also of contractors, which in turn is encouraged to the rest of the business sector. But other than that, you are correct. ;)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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MrPlankton wrote:
Went for BS degree in EET, then MS in computer science. Damn, what a jerk I was... biggest waste of time in my life. At the end of the day just do it... OJT makes all things right.
Here's where I will disagree. Although a degree does not absolutely prove anything as far as skill, only your talent and ability can do that. A degree demonstrates dedication to finishing what you start, and it has a value on paper that allows for promotions. Our company has a requirement for 75% degree on the hiring block. So for every one like me who does not have a degree, they have to have three BS's, two MS's or a PhD to offset my lack of degree. There is also a limit on payscale based on degree. I never said the degree isn't worth the time, it simply doesn't prove anything about your skill as a programmer. Here you could make nearly 50% more as a maximum salary for the exact same job (higher than me, not necessarily higher than you where ever you are now). Now that is maximum, what you earn, you earn by doing the work and demonstrating that skill. Still, the lack of a degree is a problem, so don't knock the degree as a complete waste.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
El Corazon wrote:
Now that is maximum, what you earn, you earn by doing the work and demonstrating that skill.
I'm not sure I'm out of context here, but the way I read this, you are incorrect. You aren't earning the max by doing, you are artificially limited by the management's arbitrary scale. If you know X and degreeGuy knows X, then you should be paid for what you know and the application of that knowledge. Assuming (there's a risk here of assuming) that you both know and apply X. It is WORTH the same to the company no matter who X comes from. So they are profiting by putting you down, not because of your intelligence, but because circumstances were not perfect so that you could go to college. My family was on welfare (5 kids, mom, no dad), couldn't afford college (there are WAY more fees than the grants give you), etc... So I am penalized by some pinhead who came from suburbia? I don't think so. Sorry for the rant.
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How many IT professionals here have had formal training and how many have not. Personally, I went to college for graphic design, and half way through changed to physics. Some time during all that I started working for Compaq tech support, and after playing with some web technologies got into their system admin team. From there I started doing lots of database work, ASP 3.0 & VB 6. And by then decided programming was where I wanted to be, and after 5 years in college in seemingly unrelated fields, decided not to go back to school for IT. I feel like I probably missed out on a lot not having formal training. I did take some programming courses, some out of interest and some as requirements for a physics degree. But not to a meaningful extent. Just curious about how many IT pros haven't had much formal training. And from those who did get IT related degrees, what do you feel it really gave you?
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Wow a lot of fellow physics grads here :) Hons. Physics, was originally going to do a minor in CS, but after second year the courses available to the minors were too basic. U of Waterloo, they pride themselves on their CS (always in the top 5 for the ACM contest for example) and in general the department despises all others taking there courses. If you want to take a CS major course, you have to wait to a day before the deadline, and all CS students get first crack, then the math students, then everyone else. The end result is you sit in on the course for 3 weeks, but most likely won't be able to take it :( Anyways, I got 2 years as a intern doing scientific computing work (protein folding, superconductivity), 2 courses in simulation, software engineering, digital electronics, machine architecture, 2 courses in db, AI and a couple first year CS courses. So I guess I'm a CS grad minus the CS specific math courses :) (no C & O for me, no graph theory). My first job out of university is where I'm now, I'm everything IT for a cancer centre. DBA, workstation, a little programming, networking, etc. I'm looking to get back into heavy programming, who wants a crazy physicist, I know where you can find one :)