Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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The idiot wrote:
making yourself less honest and less rational even than them
If you want to do this guy a favor, buy him a friggin dictionary. He has no clue what reason/rationality means.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
The interesting thing about this thread is how many people have claimed MF is unreasonable, without defeating his argument with reason of their own. Something's amiss... If his argument is unreasonable, please by all means show the rest of us. Wait... do you even know what his argument is?
Ian
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs. You theists are the believers. Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously as they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments. Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
We're the ones who hold no beliefs.
:laugh: That would be why you have no reason then.
Tim Craig wrote:
Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously
except that we do.
Tim Craig wrote:
they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments.
like?
Tim Craig wrote:
Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
How about believing with questions so that you don't have to justly burn in Hell.:cool:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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I checked out the book link and was amused by the top review. The reviewer shouts "ATHEISM IS NOT A PROOF THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. INSTEAD IT IS THE ASSERTION THAT THEISM DOES NOT PROVIDE AN ADEQUATE PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD." To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does and furthermore that his existance and revealed character is 100% consistent with all observed phenomena. It is positive, predictive, functional and useful, unlike atheism which is empty, fails by definition to increase knowledge because a negative cannot be proved, is non predictive, non functional and at odds with the experiences of billions of people. Case dismissed :-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does
You nailed it. You have no valid rational proof. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Yes it will be eternal torture. You choose that path if you think it best for you. Personally I'd rather spend eternity in the presence of God with all the blessings that brings. I have no doubt that many of those in Hell will be blaming God for putting them there, something they have chosen. Doesn't make it true and I hope you won't be among them. Please get a some help with your understanding of the Bible before telling others what it says and what it doesn't.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Quote: He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Look it up, the Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell, not just the absence of God. But this all beside the point, because there is no rational reason to believe in God in the first place. And it is irrational, but comforting, to believe that people live on after they die. If changes in the brain can affect consciousness, why should someone think that consciousness is caused by and will live on in some magical immaterial "soul"?
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Tim Craig wrote: for those who totally abandon reason, like MF Go on, give us an example?
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP.
You're brothers under the skin.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
:doh:No you idiot I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity. How your very desire for rationality over Christianity is undermined by itself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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No. What he's done is to call you on a daft, not to say blasphemous, sig which you can't justify. I don't have to prove anything any more than the God who made you has to prove himself to you. :laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
a daft, not to say blasphemous, sig which you can't justify.
Awww, poor baby. Can't your god take it? Does Matthew have to go around trying to beat up people who say bad things about him? :laugh:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I don't have to prove anything any more than the God who made you has to prove himself to you.
Then quit running around acting like you have proved something. Your baseless assertions and ranting isn't proof of anything. You're the one with the extraordinary cliams. If you want people to believe with you, back them up.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
Judging a book by its cover is _not _very reasonable.
Ian__
Mundo Cani wrote:
Judging a book by its cover is not very reasonable.
Really? If I see a book with a title that's obviously tripe, I should waste my time reading it? Would you read a book with the title "Jesus is a Shithead"?
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
...but he puts them there, according to the bible.
God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice." No, according the Bible, anyone who does not believe in Jesus goes to hell. People who will never hear the gospel will never be able to believe in Jesus. Many people in other countries will never hear of Jesus, so they will have no choice but Hell. And the Christian God created them knowing this.
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Quote: He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Look it up, the Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell, not just the absence of God. But this all beside the point, because there is no rational reason to believe in God in the first place. And it is irrational, but comforting, to believe that people live on after they die. If changes in the brain can affect consciousness, why should someone think that consciousness is caused by and will live on in some magical immaterial "soul"?
Demon Possessed wrote:
Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell
Which I have precisely explained but you persist in claiming a superior understanding of a Bible you don't believe in. As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Choose life. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs. You theists are the believers. Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously as they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments. Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
Ian
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Tim Craig wrote:
He hasn't presented an argument
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
From the book he suggested I read, his claim is that reason is faulty, yet he wants to appeal to reason to prove his claims. Kind of contradictory, eh? My assertion is that reason is the only path to knowledge.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell
Which I have precisely explained but you persist in claiming a superior understanding of a Bible you don't believe in. As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Choose life. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Quote: As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Yes the debate is over, because I am very tired of going back and forth with you. My lack of "compentance" has not been established, just declared by you (without evidence) several times.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
:doh:No you idiot I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity. How your very desire for rationality over Christianity is undermined by itself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No you idiot
Ah, so the name calling has begun. Does that mean I get to escalate and call you an asshole? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity.
There is nothing rational about christianity. Christianity demands blind obedience to its principles and enforces it by threats of eternal damnation. How very rational.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Judging a book by its cover is not very reasonable.
Really? If I see a book with a title that's obviously tripe, I should waste my time reading it? Would you read a book with the title "Jesus is a Shithead"?
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Ian
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does
You nailed it. You have no valid rational proof. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
You nailed it.
As did the reveiwer, You have no valid rational proof either. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof. But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists. We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Tim Craig wrote:
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
No, I have no belief that god does exist unlike you who holds a belief that he does. Since you're the one with the belief, you need to prove it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Well, I'll read that one when the two of you have read the one I posted.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
You nailed it.
As did the reveiwer, You have no valid rational proof either. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof. But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists. We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists.
Yes, you want me to believe something silly and give up a lot to do so. If I'm going to do that, I want proof. Hard proof.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father.
And you learned all of this how? Someone told you. Real proof there.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
From the book he suggested I read, his claim is that reason is faulty, yet he wants to appeal to reason to prove his claims. Kind of contradictory, eh? My assertion is that reason is the only path to knowledge.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Where did he claim that reasoning is faulty? Again, that is not what the book is about. MF's argument is this: reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. Now, would you like to engage this argument or continue with strawman fallacies by suggesting MF's argument is something other than it clearly is? As for your assertion,
Tim Craig wrote:
reason is the only path to knowledge
What is the starting point for reasoning? Is it not an axiom that itself cannot be proved? Furthermore, could you sit in your closet and "reason" what the weather is today?
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Well, I'll read that one when the two of you have read the one I posted.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
I'm not asking you to read it. I'm merely pointing out that accusing MF of arguing that reasoning is faulty because he recommended a book to you called, "escape from reason" is utterly amazing.
Ian