Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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Demon Possessed wrote:
...but he puts them there, according to the bible.
God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice." No, according the Bible, anyone who does not believe in Jesus goes to hell. People who will never hear the gospel will never be able to believe in Jesus. Many people in other countries will never hear of Jesus, so they will have no choice but Hell. And the Christian God created them knowing this.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
Judging a book by its cover is _not _very reasonable.
Ian__
Mundo Cani wrote:
Judging a book by its cover is not very reasonable.
Really? If I see a book with a title that's obviously tripe, I should waste my time reading it? Would you read a book with the title "Jesus is a Shithead"?
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Quote: He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Look it up, the Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell, not just the absence of God. But this all beside the point, because there is no rational reason to believe in God in the first place. And it is irrational, but comforting, to believe that people live on after they die. If changes in the brain can affect consciousness, why should someone think that consciousness is caused by and will live on in some magical immaterial "soul"?
Demon Possessed wrote:
Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell
Which I have precisely explained but you persist in claiming a superior understanding of a Bible you don't believe in. As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Choose life. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs. You theists are the believers. Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously as they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments. Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
Ian
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Tim Craig wrote:
He hasn't presented an argument
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
From the book he suggested I read, his claim is that reason is faulty, yet he wants to appeal to reason to prove his claims. Kind of contradictory, eh? My assertion is that reason is the only path to knowledge.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell
Which I have precisely explained but you persist in claiming a superior understanding of a Bible you don't believe in. As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Choose life. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Quote: As your lack of compentance to make such claims has already been thoroughly established this debate is over. Yes the debate is over, because I am very tired of going back and forth with you. My lack of "compentance" has not been established, just declared by you (without evidence) several times.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
:doh:No you idiot I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity. How your very desire for rationality over Christianity is undermined by itself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No you idiot
Ah, so the name calling has begun. Does that mean I get to escalate and call you an asshole? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity.
There is nothing rational about christianity. Christianity demands blind obedience to its principles and enforces it by threats of eternal damnation. How very rational.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Judging a book by its cover is not very reasonable.
Really? If I see a book with a title that's obviously tripe, I should waste my time reading it? Would you read a book with the title "Jesus is a Shithead"?
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Ian
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does
You nailed it. You have no valid rational proof. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
You nailed it.
As did the reveiwer, You have no valid rational proof either. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof. But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists. We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Tim Craig wrote:
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
No, I have no belief that god does exist unlike you who holds a belief that he does. Since you're the one with the belief, you need to prove it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Well, I'll read that one when the two of you have read the one I posted.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
You nailed it.
As did the reveiwer, You have no valid rational proof either. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof. But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists. We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father. :rose:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists.
Yes, you want me to believe something silly and give up a lot to do so. If I'm going to do that, I want proof. Hard proof.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father.
And you learned all of this how? Someone told you. Real proof there.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
From the book he suggested I read, his claim is that reason is faulty, yet he wants to appeal to reason to prove his claims. Kind of contradictory, eh? My assertion is that reason is the only path to knowledge.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Where did he claim that reasoning is faulty? Again, that is not what the book is about. MF's argument is this: reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. Now, would you like to engage this argument or continue with strawman fallacies by suggesting MF's argument is something other than it clearly is? As for your assertion,
Tim Craig wrote:
reason is the only path to knowledge
What is the starting point for reasoning? Is it not an axiom that itself cannot be proved? Furthermore, could you sit in your closet and "reason" what the weather is today?
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
As MF already pointed out, the book he recommended to you does not inform the reader how to escape reasoning, but rather explores what the author believes is an abandonment of reason by society. Your assumptions on the book are wrong and unreasonable.
Well, I'll read that one when the two of you have read the one I posted.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
I'm not asking you to read it. I'm merely pointing out that accusing MF of arguing that reasoning is faulty because he recommended a book to you called, "escape from reason" is utterly amazing.
Ian
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Quote: "God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice." No, according the Bible, anyone who does not believe in Jesus goes to hell. People who will never hear the gospel will never be able to believe in Jesus. Many people in other countries will never hear of Jesus, so they will have no choice but Hell. And the Christian God created them knowing this.
Demon Possessed wrote:
No, according the Bible, anyone who does not believe in Jesus goes to hell.
True, but by their own choosing, not God's. In fact, He has done everything fathomable to keep us from going to hell.
Demon Possessed wrote:
People who will never hear the gospel will never be able to believe in Jesus. Many people in other countries will never hear of Jesus, so they will have no choice but Hell. And the Christian God created them knowing this.
I will sign off by offering this, don't judge the Lord by what people with good intentions may or may not say. We, as finite beings, can't even begin to understand all the ways of God. People sometimes, and some people all the time, get it wrong. My advice to you would be to go straight to the source, and skip the middle man (why use a fallible man as an example of what God is). Pray that God would lead you in His word and give you understanding. The Bible is God's recipe for life. Like any good recipe, you need ALL the ingredients together, rather than those you wish to use and those you wish to omit.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
No, I have no belief that god does exist unlike you who holds a belief that he does. Since you're the one with the belief, you need to prove it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
No, I have no belief that god does exist
So then you're not sure if he does or not? The lack of belief on the topic of the existence of God amounts to uncertainty. Of course there's nothing wrong with uncertainty--it's a perfectly reasonable position. I just want to know where you're coming from. So then, you don't know if God exists or not? If this is not your position, then you either believe he exists, or you believe he doesn't exist. Based on your posts, I'd say it's clear you don't hold a belief that God exists. So then it's down to two options: Either you believe God does not exist, or you're not sure if he exists. If it's the latter, then you yourself testify that it is not a wholly unreasonable idea (otherwise you would have discarded it completely). So either you are unsure, or you believe he does not exist. I'm guessing the latter. And if I'm right, were you unaware that you believed that? Or were you just being dishonest?
Tim Craig wrote:
Since you're the one with the belief, you need to prove it.
I don't need to prove it. It is a personal belief that I hold for myself. I have not asked you to accept it.
Ian
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
But who's asking for proof, oh, that would be you atheists.
Yes, you want me to believe something silly and give up a lot to do so. If I'm going to do that, I want proof. Hard proof.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
We recognize that there can be no proof but there can be faith; which is the gift of God, not earned but given freely so that no one can boast except in Christ and him crucified, raised to life and interceding for us at the right hand of the father.
And you learned all of this how? Someone told you. Real proof there.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
Someone told you.
Exactly, and if it had been anyone else but God I wouldn't have taken any notice.
Tim Craig wrote:
Yes, you want me to believe something silly and give up a lot to do so.
Exactly. He who loves his life will loose it. He who looses his life for me will gain eternal life. You can go on demanding proof from the God who made you until your time is up or you can accept the evidence of his character in the world he has made and the words he has given us. Give up your pride, repent of your sins and be saved. You choose, you live forever with the consequences either way.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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What book do you recommend for my sig?
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove and evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yeah, makes perfect sense.
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For the benefit of the majority of the Code Project members - that aren't from Sweden - I'll reply in English: Jörgen wrote: I recommend you to read George H. Smiths book "Atheism, A Case Against God" before you buy that statement completely. Yes, it's on my reading list (I may get to it in a year or so). However, I find it hard to beleive that a single book could topple what I understand to be (one way of formulating) the current majority standpoint of the scientific community as a whole. It would take some substantial corroboration for that, I beleive. Then again, I might actually be *wrong*... :-) /Peter
Abonet wrote:
For the benefit of the majority of the Code Project members - that aren't from Sweden - I'll reply in English: . Jörgen wrote: I recommend you to read George H. Smiths book "Atheism, A Case Against God" before you buy that statement completely.
The statement you'd made, and of which Mr Sigvardsson imagines reading a book will cure you, was this:
Abonet wrote:
The one most important realization [which lead you to deprogram yourself from 'atheism'] was the one Matthew reiterates - that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven.
All of which merely shows us that -- as is typical for the type -- Mr Sigvardsson hasn't the faintest understanding of what he presumes to talk about. The fact is that even were it possible to present a logically valid and sound case for 'atheism' and/or against Christianity, the truth that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven remains unchanged and unchallenged.
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Yes Kyle, your combination of deep theology and encyclopeadic knowledge of Church history humbles us all. Do enlighten us. :rolleyes:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Yes Kyle, your combination of deep theology and encyclopeadic knowledge of Church history humbles us all. Do enlighten us.
You don't know who wrote the bible not even the new testament. The gospels were not written by their reputed authors. The whole thing is contradictory and inconsistent. The catholic church cherry picked what is included from other available documents. People now cherry pick what parts they want to believe and what are just poetry. Jesus didn't offer up anything new in terms of philosophy that he didn't glean from the old testament. He taught that god was a coming real soon now and expected his followers to be whisked into heaven in their lifetimes but gee, I don't think that happened....
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.