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  3. Tools - some advice please

Tools - some advice please

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toolstestingjavahardwarebusiness
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  • R Rama Krishna Vavilala

    Split the money among each of the developers in your team. The productivity will be more than what the tools will provide:)

    Co-Author ASP.NET AJAX in Action CP Quote of the Day: It is the same Friday that blooms as a new enriching day with novelty and innovation for us every week. - Vasudevan Deepak Kumar

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    peterchen
    wrote on last edited by
    #10

    Nah, you'll hurt productivity in the long run. (Unless there's a reason for a phat bonus now)

    We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
    My first real C# project | Linkify!|[">FoldWithUs!](http://tinyurl.com/37q6tt<br mode=) | sighist

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    • D Dave Sexton

      If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

      But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
      Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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      Todd Smith
      wrote on last edited by
      #11

      I belive NDoc is no longer updated and has been replaced with Sandcastle (free). Resharper is nice but I ran into some performance problems with it and uninstalled it (inexpensive). We use CruiseControl.NET and NAnt for build automation (free). Most projects I've used integrate NUnit (free). log4net is a good logging library (free). What about bug tracking? We use TestTrack but it gets expensive. I've never used BugZilla but I hear it recommended often. Use the rest of the money to buy everyone big phat dual monitors.

      Todd Smith

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      • M Member 96

        Personally I've found build automation to be of huge benefit. I would put nearly any amount of time or money on that if it can get you a nearly one click build process. It will improve nearly every aspect of your time to market but in particular it let's you do full builds more frequently which lets you do more real world testing more frequently which catches things earlier etc etc. A profiler is useful only to alleviate a painful situation, it's not very useful for day to day work but it's very good to have on on hand when that situation arises. NDoc is great. FXCop is sort of helpful as long as you realize good software sometimes doesn't play by the "rules" it has. I have a personal bias against unit testing, I think it's a colossal waste of money the way it's over used today but I'm sure lot's of cubicle type developers will have a different opinion. I think if it's used very sparingly where it will actually matter then it's a fine thing. If I had 26k I'd spend a while trolling through the old Joel on software columns about productivity with an open mind and a simple list of overall objectives rather than pre-determining what's needed specifically, I've never found anything he said to not resonant completely with what I've learned through hard knocks over the years.


        When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.

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        Andy Brummer
        wrote on last edited by
        #12

        John C wrote:

        I have a personal bias against unit testing, I think it's a colossal waste of money the way it's over used today but I'm sure lot's of cubicle type developers will have a different opinion.

        It has it's place like version control. On some projects it made the difference between me getting paged weekly for production issues and having to dust off my docs to figure out what was going on because I hadn't gotten a page in over a year even though usage went up 10x in the mean time. I agree with you that for most development where refactoring is rare and you have relatively stable requirements it is of limited use. If you have to make large changes in architecture due to randomly changing requirements, it can save your butt in more ways then you ever imagined.

        John C wrote:

        f I had 26k I'd spend a while trolling through the old Joel on software columns about productivity with an open mind

        That's the real key. There isn't one way to do development well. It really has to be tailored to the type of developers and the current team. Just because something works with one group doesn't mean it will be just as effective with another group or product.


        This blanket smells like ham

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        • T Todd Smith

          I belive NDoc is no longer updated and has been replaced with Sandcastle (free). Resharper is nice but I ran into some performance problems with it and uninstalled it (inexpensive). We use CruiseControl.NET and NAnt for build automation (free). Most projects I've used integrate NUnit (free). log4net is a good logging library (free). What about bug tracking? We use TestTrack but it gets expensive. I've never used BugZilla but I hear it recommended often. Use the rest of the money to buy everyone big phat dual monitors.

          Todd Smith

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          Andy Brummer
          wrote on last edited by
          #13

          Todd Smith wrote:

          Use the rest of the money to buy everyone big phat dual monitors.

          I wouldn't mind a bump up to quadruple monitors. :rolleyes:


          This blanket smells like ham

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          • D Dave Sexton

            If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

            But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
            Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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            Andy Brummer
            wrote on last edited by
            #14

            Pick some categories and have your team go out and do some research on their own. If you want tools that have a chance of getting used, personal choice is important. I like dotTrace for a profiler, and I like code historian for viewing source history as well.


            This blanket smells like ham

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            • D Dave Sexton

              If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

              But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
              Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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              eggsovereasy
              wrote on last edited by
              #15

              Resharper from JetBrains, I love it.

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              • B Brady Kelly

                And some non-cubicle types.

                My head asplode!

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                Member 96
                wrote on last edited by
                #16

                Or maybe cuble at heart types? ;)


                When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.

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                • R Robert Surtees

                  $26k would buy a lot of beer

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                  Mustafa Ismail Mustafa
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #17

                  :beer: Always an excellent choice :D

                  "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance." Ali ibn Abi Talib "Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?"

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                  • A Andy Brummer

                    Todd Smith wrote:

                    Use the rest of the money to buy everyone big phat dual monitors.

                    I wouldn't mind a bump up to quadruple monitors. :rolleyes:


                    This blanket smells like ham

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                    thrakazog
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #18

                    I can't even remember what it's like to program on a single monitor anymore. 3 is definitely the minimum everybody should have. I'm sure i could find a use for a 4th also.

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                    • D Dave Sexton

                      If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

                      But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
                      Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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                      L Offline
                      leppie
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #19

                      Hire a code monkey to do all the boring/trivial work :)

                      xacc.ide
                      IronScheme a R5RS/R6RS-compliant Scheme on the DLR
                      The rule of three: "The first time you notice something that might repeat, don't generalize it. The second time the situation occurs, develop in a similar fashion -- possibly even copy/paste -- but don't generalize yet. On the third time, look to generalize the approach."

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                      • D Dave Sexton

                        If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

                        But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
                        Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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                        C Offline
                        code frog 0
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #20

                        Take them to Jamaica and !YES! I am serious. It will be the single biggest investment you make in your team and the ROI will be huge. I'm not joking at all. Do it! Hire me first though...

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                        • D Dave Sexton

                          If you had $26k to spend on your dev team (12 devs) where would you spend it? We've got decent hardware & won't be moving to VS2008 next year. We don't care about any GUI tools as our business is completely service based. We're looking for tools that'll help us with • Code Optimisation/Refactoring • Productivity • Testing (we currently use NUnit) • Build Automation • Code Documentation We've been looking at tools like the ANTS profiler, JetBrains ReSharper, FxCop, NDoc, Sandcastle, etc. & will be evaluating most of these over our code freeze period to see what we find most suitable to us. Still, I'd like to hear what others experiences with these tools were & if they could make any recommendations (even if it's a recommendation to avoid a certain product!) This isn't about spending money just for the sake of spending - we're looking for maximum gain for our team within the budget we have. Any suggestions? Opinions?

                          But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
                          Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

                          P Online
                          P Online
                          PIEBALDconsult
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #21

                          Company day out at a day-spa. :cool:

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                          • T thrakazog

                            I can't even remember what it's like to program on a single monitor anymore. 3 is definitely the minimum everybody should have. I'm sure i could find a use for a 4th also.

                            D Offline
                            D Offline
                            Daniel Vaughan
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #22

                            More screen space is never a bad thing, but I've grown quite used to my 17 inch Dell Inspiron screen. I guess I'm biased toward mobility since I've been gallivanting around.


                            Daniel Vaughan
                            LinkedIn Profile ShelfSpy

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                            • E eggsovereasy

                              Resharper from JetBrains, I love it.

                              D Offline
                              D Offline
                              Daniel Vaughan
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #23

                              I concur. I can't imagine being without it now. In fact I'm starting to go bananas with the lack of support for .NET 3.5. Perhaps I'm too dependent on it. When I sit down at somebody else's computer, and they don't have Resharper, I find I'm dead in the water.


                              Daniel Vaughan
                              LinkedIn Profile ShelfSpy

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                              • P peterchen

                                How much do you score on the Joel Test[^]? Visual Assist if you do C++ An "industry-strength" Espresso machine Some guy to set up all the dev tools Visual Assist if you do C#

                                We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
                                My first real C# project | Linkify!|[">FoldWithUs!](http://tinyurl.com/37q6tt<br mode=) | sighist

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                                Dave Sexton
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #24

                                Great link - thanks. We weigh in with a score of 10 but that's because it's impossible for us to do a daily build/build in one step as our product is made up of a few different solutions which each require their own build (albeit each of these build in one step). Our core solution is currently made up of just under 400 projects so doing a daily build is just not feasible - we have a fortnightly build.

                                But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
                                Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

                                P 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • D Dave Sexton

                                  Great link - thanks. We weigh in with a score of 10 but that's because it's impossible for us to do a daily build/build in one step as our product is made up of a few different solutions which each require their own build (albeit each of these build in one step). Our core solution is currently made up of just under 400 projects so doing a daily build is just not feasible - we have a fortnightly build.

                                  But fortunately we have the nanny-state politicians who can step in to protect us poor stupid consumers, most of whom would not know a JVM from a frozen chicken. Bruce Pierson
                                  Because programming is an art, not a science. Marc Clifton

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                                  peterchen
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #25

                                  Well, on my scale, 10 is escellent, 11 is fake, and 12 is Joel fanboy :) Another thing that you might like: distributing builds over multiple machines[^] You have a team large enough that it could make a difference for you. I have no experience with their product, but if you try it, I'd love to hear feedback.

                                  We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
                                  My first real C# project | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist

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