There is no such thing as time
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
There is no such thing as time
I beg to differ. As someone who has (involuntarily) ingested milk that has long since passed its expiry date, I assure you there is indeed something called time - the passage of which can be very detrimental to your morning coffee. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Music | Articles | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the
Objects exist within space. We measure the distance between objects using human defined scales. "State changes" exist within time. We measure the rate of those changes also using human defined scales. Erm, and just to add, in the end we're not just talking about space or time but space-time. :)
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
There is no such thing as time
Damn, if only had i thought of that when my physics teacher had said my work was late. Infact, the discussion on the matter would probably have taken up the lesson too. Ah, back in the day, we never really did any work in those physicis lessons... at least i didn't anyway :~
My current favourite word is: Bauble!
-SK Genius
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Marc Clifton wrote:
There is no such thing as time
I beg to differ. As someone who has (involuntarily) ingested milk that has long since passed its expiry date, I assure you there is indeed something called time - the passage of which can be very detrimental to your morning coffee. /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Music | Articles | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
the passage of which can be very detrimental to your morning coffee.
No, no--that's just a different state. Nothing temporal has happened, only a state transition. :) Marc
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Then money doesn't exist either? (Time == Money)
Marc Clifton wrote:
the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied.
From where?
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the
Objects exist within space. We measure the distance between objects using human defined scales. "State changes" exist within time. We measure the rate of those changes also using human defined scales. Erm, and just to add, in the end we're not just talking about space or time but space-time. :)
Leslie Sanford wrote:
"State changes" exist within time.
Ah, that's where I disagree. State exists without time.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
We measure the rate of those changes also using human defined scales.
The measuring the rate of those changes is a purely subjective experience of state change, which we call "the passage of time". :) Marc
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Have you ever read "Critique of Pure Reason" by Immanuel Kant? If not, I believe that this would be a book that you'd enjoy. Kant's main goals are 1) describe how humans interact with the reality, 2) describe how (and how far) can humans "know" this reality, and 3) try to find a way outside the knowledge itself (science) in which humans can "know" about metaphyisical concepts (liberty, love, God, soul, etc). The interesting thing (and related to your post) is that Kant finds out that human perception of things (our reality) is tightly bounded to both space and time. He states that human nature per se needs both space and time in order to function. In other words, you cannot think about anything without implying both space and time. Furthermore, he states that both concepts are the same since both imply each other (and he did so 124 years before Einstein's theory, by the way). For instance, if I tell you "book" you'll imagine a book in your mind, but you'll imagine it with a width and length, and there you imply the space. In a similar way, every time you use a verb you imagine the action itself, but it has by definition both a start and an end, thus implying time. Kant's conclusion is that, therefore, we humans can know things within space and time, but other things that may (or may not) exist outside both, we can not hope to know them, thus making any metaphysical concept (such as the ideas of love or liberty) unreachable as knowledge, and we can only believe (or not) in them. In other words, we're not able to imagine things outside space and time, and since both determine our reality, from our (subjective) point of view both space and time exists, since denying any of them would be denying our own reality. But then again (I think), it is possible that time is an illusion of human mind, but as far as we're concerned, we need it as a real thing in order to understand reality.
Stupidity is an International Association - Enrique Jardiel Poncela
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Have you ever read "Critique of Pure Reason" by Immanuel Kant? If not, I believe that this would be a book that you'd enjoy. Kant's main goals are 1) describe how humans interact with the reality, 2) describe how (and how far) can humans "know" this reality, and 3) try to find a way outside the knowledge itself (science) in which humans can "know" about metaphyisical concepts (liberty, love, God, soul, etc). The interesting thing (and related to your post) is that Kant finds out that human perception of things (our reality) is tightly bounded to both space and time. He states that human nature per se needs both space and time in order to function. In other words, you cannot think about anything without implying both space and time. Furthermore, he states that both concepts are the same since both imply each other (and he did so 124 years before Einstein's theory, by the way). For instance, if I tell you "book" you'll imagine a book in your mind, but you'll imagine it with a width and length, and there you imply the space. In a similar way, every time you use a verb you imagine the action itself, but it has by definition both a start and an end, thus implying time. Kant's conclusion is that, therefore, we humans can know things within space and time, but other things that may (or may not) exist outside both, we can not hope to know them, thus making any metaphysical concept (such as the ideas of love or liberty) unreachable as knowledge, and we can only believe (or not) in them. In other words, we're not able to imagine things outside space and time, and since both determine our reality, from our (subjective) point of view both space and time exists, since denying any of them would be denying our own reality. But then again (I think), it is possible that time is an illusion of human mind, but as far as we're concerned, we need it as a real thing in order to understand reality.
Stupidity is an International Association - Enrique Jardiel Poncela
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
time is an illusion
"... lunchtime doubly so." -- Douglas Adams
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
So what you're suggesting is that the universe changes (OK, let's get technical: Entropy increases monotonically) as some measurable reference value changes. Suits me. How about we call this measurable reference quantity "Time". It'll save paper when it comes to rewriting physics. (Hint: Don't think of time as separate from space)
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
"Time is an illusion - lunchtime doubly so" - Slartibartfast, in The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Enough said, really. :rolleyes:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
modified on Monday, January 07, 2008 1:19:11 AM
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So what you're suggesting is that the universe changes (OK, let's get technical: Entropy increases monotonically) as some measurable reference value changes. Suits me. How about we call this measurable reference quantity "Time". It'll save paper when it comes to rewriting physics. (Hint: Don't think of time as separate from space)
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Isn't that rephrasing exactly what Marc stated?
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
Imagine a closed system, where the objects inside it change their states (position, temperature, etc). We describe the state changes that take place by relating to the notion of time, like for example speed = d(distance) / d(time) (d - differential). Now, one can think that no state changes happen in this system, then the notion of time is irrelevant, as there are no state changes, thus no way to notice passage of time. But I ask you: is it possible to have such a system where absolutely nothing changes? The answer is NO. There are some things which can never be stopped like the Brownian movement or the electrons revolving around the nuclei of atoms. In theory, these can also be 'frozen' in a system where the temperature is ABSOLUTE ZERO (-273.15 C IIRC), but then again it has been proven that absolute zero is unreachable in practice. So, time exists! Good mental gymnastics, though. Have you seen the movie 'What the #$^@ do we know?' It's a part-fiction part-documentary dealing with quantum physics, philosophy and bio-chemistry.
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Isn't that rephrasing exactly what Marc stated?
Yes, except Chris is a scientist and understands this a lot deeper than most of us and the thought Marc is having has been had before and led to Time being defined. Not defined as you define a variable but defined as in describing something in our heads to make sense of something outside of our heads. "Time" is a label for something we have observed. It would exist whether we labeled it or not.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote:
Watson's law: As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
I thought this was something most people think about for awhile, along the lines of "How the bejeezus did we get here?" When I had this thought I thought I was onto something but then realised I was just relabeling. Time will exist in its form ("state change", 4th dimension, whatever) whether we label it or not. An alien race may call it something else, possibly equating it to some religious manifestation of the universe ("the universe lives through time and as god is life so time is god"). We didn't invent time, we just coined it, gave what we observed a name. So as Chris says, you are right but heck, lets just call it time at the end of the day :)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote:
Watson's law: As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
>the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes Well then that's TIME! Your argument merely re-defines time. You've simply said that time doesn't exist in the units of measure we use today (i.e. no seconds, days, years etc); you're simply saying it's a measure of the changes in state that particles undergo. Which is spot on, because changes in state are a process - time is therefore a measure of those processes! Therefore time exists - you just don't wanna call it time. Elementary my dear Marc :-)
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
This argument has come up a lot in "amateur" philosophical discussions. We amateurs are the real philosophers, not those dumbasses like Freud or Jung. Anyhow, my friend and I have been discussing this idea for some time. As he is a philosophy major, he's going to be doing his senior thesis on this idea next fall. I'm always pleased to find this idea brought forth by a new person. Congrats, Marc, you've just joined yet another circle of enlightened beings. How many does that make for you now?
There is no knowledge that is not power. - Mortal Kombat
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Imagine a closed system, where the objects inside it change their states (position, temperature, etc). We describe the state changes that take place by relating to the notion of time, like for example speed = d(distance) / d(time) (d - differential). Now, one can think that no state changes happen in this system, then the notion of time is irrelevant, as there are no state changes, thus no way to notice passage of time. But I ask you: is it possible to have such a system where absolutely nothing changes? The answer is NO. There are some things which can never be stopped like the Brownian movement or the electrons revolving around the nuclei of atoms. In theory, these can also be 'frozen' in a system where the temperature is ABSOLUTE ZERO (-273.15 C IIRC), but then again it has been proven that absolute zero is unreachable in practice. So, time exists! Good mental gymnastics, though. Have you seen the movie 'What the #$^@ do we know?' It's a part-fiction part-documentary dealing with quantum physics, philosophy and bio-chemistry.
blackjack2150 wrote:
In theory, these can also be 'frozen' in a system where the temperature is ABSOLUTE ZERO (-273.15 C IIRC), but then again it has been proven that absolute zero is unreachable in practice.
You're right, ABSOLUTE ZERO can't be achieved, but a former Physics 101 lab student of mine got within a millionth of a degree: http://govexec.com/features/1006sam/1006samS2.htm[^] By the way, that article is not just not PR - he really IS a nice guy!
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
That's pretty close to what I think too. For me (as a brain), brains are symbol manipulators which use massive multiprocessing (at the neuron level). Symbols and Time are parts of the (my) brain's strategy for reducing complexity. "Time" is the user thread - otherwise called "conciousness"... ;) James
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc
i agree, theres not such a thing as time, u cant take time from some place and move it to another, u cannot stop time, u cannot make time go backwards, time is the name we have given to a concept, our way to measure how many events have happened between... other events. time is measured now using atomic clocks, some scientist discovered that some atomic nuclei undergo some changes periodically in a stable form, precision comes to mind, 10^-9 seconds per day... so imo, time, if it were to be inluded into any formula, it should be handled with care, because its a concept that never goes backward, cant be exchanged, cannot be stopped, simply flows whether u want, belive, or anything, its a shame the scientific community its swamped into relativistic bullshit, time dilation, the twin brothers paradox, seems to me that some human especimens still feel the need to hold into the chance of the magical or mystical man beeing a possibility, and dont start with the e=mc2 'magic' as some of us always knew that its the kinetic energy formula to which someone just exchanged velocity with the speed of light anyway, this is not easy matter (xD) and the web is full or controversial opinions and flames. take care, regards jan
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Speaking of physics... I've come the idea (probably not original, but I never read the works of the great or not so great philosophers), that time is merely a subjective concept created by the human brain to relate to state changes. There is no such thing as time, rather, the universe simply undergoes a continuous set of state changes as a result of forces being applied. Time is something we create to describe the relationship of those different states according to some, undefined, master reference. The master reference isn't time, it's a metastate change, much like your CPU is driven by the state changes in the oscillator. :) Marc