EU launches new Microsoft probes
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
OEMs can bundle alternative browsers, so the end users still don't pay anything.
Exactly that. Every preconfigured PC I got in my life came with a bunch of unnecessary CDs/DVDs and unwanted software, so a few apps extra doesn't cost anything.
Wait a second.... you say that Ms's *Free* browser costs get passed onto you in other ways... Who do you think pays for the OEM's *Free* software that is bundled with it?? Ignor the propagander and give me the answer you work out by logic!
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Andre Buenger wrote:
which Microsoft finally won because they bundled IE with Windows
But it also had to get to a "good enough" stage compared to Netscape. Prior to IE 4 this was not the case. Earlier versions were unusable. IE4 was IMO slightly superior to Netscape 4. IE 5 and 6 were significantly superior to Netcsape 4.x. I've never used later versions of Netscape (unless you count Firefox). Today Firefox 2 is significantly superior to IE7.
Kevin
[Message Deleted]
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Read my entire post. I was saying that its not free for people who build their own machines. They either have to download it (and without a preinstalled browser, they would have to use FTP or similar) or BUY the cd with it on it. I dont see why anyone would complain about free software (as crap as it is!!). Without it, setting up a computer would be a lot more difficult.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
Actually, I disagree with Andre's viewpoint but was just trying to help him out. :)
Kevin
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Andre Buenger wrote:
IE taxes
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle. Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
No, they would have to charge more to make up for all the whiners that are sueing them everyday.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off.
I agree there. I am not a fan of Microsoft, but I dont think blaming them for things that most of us still use daily is a fair thing.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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It seems to me that some people are forgetting fast, I thought most of us knows the browser history of the last 10 years. Once there was a browser war between Netscape and Microsoft which Microsoft finally won because they bundled IE with Windows. And then? Nothing for 5 years, until Firefox gained more and more marketshare. Without Firefox we would still be using IE5.5 nowadays.
So what? In the last seven years, people would have ridiculed any consumer OS that didn't come with a browser preinstalled. It would be the ugly fat kid that wants to be a model. Microsoft recognized early enough that a browser needs to be there out of the box, and that there's no money to be made with the browser itself. It's there? YES PLEASE! As a desktop developer, nothing better can happen to me than an ActiveX Control I can reuse, that I can expect to be there, and that renders my HTML the same way it rendered during testing. I know that this is ignorant to some of the bigger pictures, but heck - I didn't order them painted.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Wait a second.... you say that Ms's *Free* browser costs get passed onto you in other ways... Who do you think pays for the OEM's *Free* software that is bundled with it?? Ignor the propagander and give me the answer you work out by logic!
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
a) Firefox is developed by the Mozilla Foundation and distributed for free. b) Internet Explorer is bundled with Windows and you pay the cost with your Windows license.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
Who do you think pays for the OEM's *Free* software that is bundled with it??
If the OEM puts Firefox on DVD that comes with your PC you only pay for the DVD, not Firefox. Probably $0.03, big deal.
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[Message Deleted]
But the rise of Firefox shows how fragile this monopoly was. It's the difference between a market (de facto) monopoly and a state (de jure) monopoly.
Kevin
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Why don't they just kick MS out and be done with it ? They are obviously determined to attack them on the slightest whim of thier competitors.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
You are missing the point - the EU commissioners are a complete and utter waste of time. Most are an unelected bunch of self-serving, self-aggrandizing, money grabbing, bottom feeding, scum suckers. OK - rant over, I feel better for that.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
No, they would have to charge more to make up for all the whiners that are sueing them everyday.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off.
I agree there. I am not a fan of Microsoft, but I dont think blaming them for things that most of us still use daily is a fair thing.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
Thunderbox666 wrote:
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
And that's the way that innovations happen. Great isn't it?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Bloody ridiculous.
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors. And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
A 1 for loosing site of what every OS does, not just Microsoft. They all come with a browser preinstalled. Mac OS X with Safari, Windows with IE, Ubuntu etc. with Firefox. Opera is the one out in the cold and they are getting a bit miffed. They should be happy with their spread on non-PC devices like mobile phones and the Wii. (I do agree Windows too tightly integrates IE however. It should be uninstallable, just like Firefox and Safari is on Ubuntu and Mac OS X respectively. I don't however think Microsoft should be forced to distribute competitor products, Apple would never do that either.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
martin_hughes wrote:
The EU - a ghastly unelected entity
Yep, and increasingly totalitarian and power-hungry.
Kevin
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm waiting for the EU to sue God because he made the Earth proprietary.
Plus he didnt give its users a choice lol
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
You obviously don't understand much about christianity ;)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Andre Buenger wrote:
IE taxes
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle. Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
I'm not bashing MS and I also think that Firefox has shown that you can gain marketshare, so Opera shouldn't whine here. But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6?
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You obviously don't understand much about christianity ;)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighistI do actually as I am a christian. :) My last comment was intened purely as a joke and nothing more.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
I'm not bashing MS and I also think that Firefox has shown that you can gain marketshare, so Opera shouldn't whine here. But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6?
Andre Buenger wrote:
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Andre Buenger wrote:
But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
martin_hughes wrote:
Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8
LOL sounds like an election campaign. "I promise that if you vote for me, I will..."... except unlike elections, you can change your mind after if they dont fulfill their promises
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Bloody ridiculous.
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors. And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
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Thunderbox666 wrote:
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
And that's the way that innovations happen. Great isn't it?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Great isn't it?
Not for my wallet lol
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Andre Buenger wrote:
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Andre Buenger wrote:
But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Actually there is already a Windows N edition in the EU without the Media Player. Same price as the standard edition and I've never seen it, but I'm sure that you can somehow get it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Without sponsors (I guess Google foremost) and contributors we wouldn't have Firefox. And Firefox only had a chance because it came for free. Opera had no chance, who would pay for a browser if a "good enough" one comes with Windows. If IE would be priced out the game would be a different one.