EU launches new Microsoft probes
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
No, they would have to charge more to make up for all the whiners that are sueing them everyday.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off.
I agree there. I am not a fan of Microsoft, but I dont think blaming them for things that most of us still use daily is a fair thing.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
Thunderbox666 wrote:
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
And that's the way that innovations happen. Great isn't it?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
martin_hughes wrote:
The EU - a ghastly unelected entity
Yep, and increasingly totalitarian and power-hungry.
Kevin
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Bloody ridiculous.
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors. And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
A 1 for loosing site of what every OS does, not just Microsoft. They all come with a browser preinstalled. Mac OS X with Safari, Windows with IE, Ubuntu etc. with Firefox. Opera is the one out in the cold and they are getting a bit miffed. They should be happy with their spread on non-PC devices like mobile phones and the Wii. (I do agree Windows too tightly integrates IE however. It should be uninstallable, just like Firefox and Safari is on Ubuntu and Mac OS X respectively. I don't however think Microsoft should be forced to distribute competitor products, Apple would never do that either.)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm waiting for the EU to sue God because he made the Earth proprietary.
Plus he didnt give its users a choice lol
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
You obviously don't understand much about christianity ;)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Andre Buenger wrote:
IE taxes
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle. Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
I'm not bashing MS and I also think that Firefox has shown that you can gain marketshare, so Opera shouldn't whine here. But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6?
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You obviously don't understand much about christianity ;)
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighistI do actually as I am a christian. :) My last comment was intened purely as a joke and nothing more.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
What IE taxes? You pay for an OS (with bundled software). The individual components aren't costed out. Do you honestly think that Microsoft would reduce the cost of the OS if they were forced to unbundle.
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Frankly, this MS bashing really p!sses me off. The industry would be in a lot poorer state if Microsoft hadn't caused the competition to raise their game. Competition is healthy and competition leads to innovation.
I'm not bashing MS and I also think that Firefox has shown that you can gain marketshare, so Opera shouldn't whine here. But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6?
Andre Buenger wrote:
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Andre Buenger wrote:
But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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Looks at bit spurious and woolly to me...[^] Ok, so IE (up to and including 7) has been a bit sucky on the standards compliance; but a standard is precisely that - a standard. You don't have to follow them, otherwise Toyota would have been forced to sign up to ISO9000. However, Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8. If Opera want greater market penetration they should be signing deals with Dell, Acer, Lenovo and the other big manufacturers. Dell, for instance, seem only too happy to pre-install loads of crap which I then have to waste valuable time removing (in spite of specifically asking them not to install anything except the base O/S). But it just seems easier to go whinging to the EU. Quite why is there all this fuss about free software? What I care about is that I can install Windows, and I'm pretty much good to go - I can browse the Interweb, listen to music yadda, yadda, yadda. If I'm not happy with the pre-installed applications I can install any other I chose, either paid for or free. Surely that's consumer choice? The EU - a ghastly unelected entity. But I won't go there, lest we all end up with suds in our eyes :)
martin_hughes wrote:
Microsoft are promising to address this in IE8
LOL sounds like an election campaign. "I promise that if you vote for me, I will..."... except unlike elections, you can change your mind after if they dont fulfill their promises
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Bloody ridiculous.
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors. And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
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Thunderbox666 wrote:
This one worked both ways. "They have a better product, what can we do to improve?" then the other company does exactly the same thing.. it is a never ending cycle.
And that's the way that innovations happen. Great isn't it?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Great isn't it?
Not for my wallet lol
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Andre Buenger wrote:
My point was that IE isn't free, you pay for the component, it's just not costed out.
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Andre Buenger wrote:
But do you really want to say that MS was innovative after IE6
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
You're right - which was why I also said that it was unlikely that Microsoft would reduce the end cost, regardless.
Actually there is already a Windows N edition in the EU without the Media Player. Same price as the standard edition and I've never seen it, but I'm sure that you can somehow get it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
No - FireFox was the innovator, and this forced Microsoft to push things forward.
Without sponsors (I guess Google foremost) and contributors we wouldn't have Firefox. And Firefox only had a chance because it came for free. Opera had no chance, who would pay for a browser if a "good enough" one comes with Windows. If IE would be priced out the game would be a different one.
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Ray Cassick wrote:
And I suppose you have the figures to back that up?
Of course not, that number is just a guess and maybe too high. But you can't disagree that a significant number of users never thought about alternatives because IE was just there.
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a) Firefox is developed by the Mozilla Foundation and distributed for free. b) Internet Explorer is bundled with Windows and you pay the cost with your Windows license.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
Who do you think pays for the OEM's *Free* software that is bundled with it??
If the OEM puts Firefox on DVD that comes with your PC you only pay for the DVD, not Firefox. Probably $0.03, big deal.
Andre Buenger wrote:
b) Internet Explorer is bundled with Windows and you pay the cost with your Windows license.
We both know that you are extremly biased. If Internet explorer was the only free one on the market, and it didnt come bundled, you would probably have a cry about having to download one. Lets review the facts here: * It is bundled with the software * If it wasnt bundled windows would still cost the same amount * They dont force you to use it * It provides an easier way for you to download FF * If you are a home user, it is more then good enough for what you need * You are only whining about it because Microsoft make it. Sound about right?
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Actually, I disagree with Andre's viewpoint but was just trying to help him out. :)
Kevin
lol... a closet MS supporter? :p
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Bloody ridiculous. EU launches new Microsoft probes[^]
Kevin
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Andre Buenger wrote:
b) Internet Explorer is bundled with Windows and you pay the cost with your Windows license.
We both know that you are extremly biased. If Internet explorer was the only free one on the market, and it didnt come bundled, you would probably have a cry about having to download one. Lets review the facts here: * It is bundled with the software * If it wasnt bundled windows would still cost the same amount * They dont force you to use it * It provides an easier way for you to download FF * If you are a home user, it is more then good enough for what you need * You are only whining about it because Microsoft make it. Sound about right?
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
Thunderbox666 wrote:
Sound about right?
Nope.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
If it wasnt bundled windows would still cost the same amount
If IE would have to fund itself Windows could cost less.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
You are only whining about it because Microsoft make it.
Absolutely not. I just don't like anticompetive behaviour and monopolies, because they cause stagnation and overpriced products.
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Thunderbox666 wrote:
Sound about right?
Nope.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
If it wasnt bundled windows would still cost the same amount
If IE would have to fund itself Windows could cost less.
Thunderbox666 wrote:
You are only whining about it because Microsoft make it.
Absolutely not. I just don't like anticompetive behaviour and monopolies, because they cause stagnation and overpriced products.
Andre Buenger wrote:
If IE would have to fund itself Windows could cost less.
If microsoft thought they could charge more, they would. If microsoft thought they should charge less, they would think "Is this effecting our sales?" If the answer is no (which in most cases it would be) they would not lower their prices. It doesnt matter how many things you remove, they are still gready and will want the same ammount of money. Stop kidding yourself!! you know as well as I do, that (1) Users have a choice, and most of them choose convienience (eg, IE) and (2) No matter what you take out or put in to windows, MS will still try and get the most money from it.
"There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth" ~ unknown
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Ray Cassick wrote:
And I suppose you have the figures to back that up?
Of course not, that number is just a guess and maybe too high. But you can't disagree that a significant number of users never thought about alternatives because IE was just there.
Andre Buenger wrote:
But you can't disagree that a significant number of users never thought about alternatives because IE was just there.
In this day and age of "instant gratification", most people who don't work in the software industry expect everything to "just work". Microsoft incorporates IE and WMP, which most of the time "just work". I qualify that with "most of the time" because nothing is perfect. I mention WMP because it was mentioned earlier and I really have to ask, just how popular is Windows N version in the Europe? I haven't seen any real sales figures but I hear that it's not flying off the shelf, not even in the European countries. Here's some XP N info, yes it's a bit stale however it reinforces my point: Windows XP N Sales Figures[^] You can search for more stuff, however everything I find says that the European Union's forcing of creating the N version of Windows was a phenominal flop because if anyone's buying it, it's a well kept secret. I did hear a rumor that the German government put the N version of Windows on their computers, but I suspect that's only because they're part of the European Union and had to some how validate the EU's decision to force this on a software manufacturing company. As far as I'm concerned, the EU's primary reason for doing this isn't to level the playing field as they claim, but to justify picking the pockets of Microsoft and anyone else they decide to rob to rebuild their coffers.
Mike Poz
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Andre Buenger wrote:
And I also think that Opera is right, the Internet Explorer shouldn't be bundled with Windows. 90% of the IE users don't use it by choice but because it came preinstalled with Windows.
Question. What will the 90% use if it didn't come pre-installed? I assume that manufacturers would have to bear the cost of alternative browsers, and they would pass this cost onto users. Alternatively, it would be up to end users to download the browser. Precisely how would they do that? My mother can barely access google, I really wouldn't expect her to be able to use FTP from the command line to download the browser.
Andre Buenger wrote:
No, it's not. First and foremost is the EU comission only reacting to complaints by Microsoft competitors.
So - no vested interests there then. Interesting to note that the competitors all have paid for applications. They aren't exactly in the vanguard of open source software. Want Oracle - go on then, fork out a couple of million.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
to both you and christian ... it really wouldn't be hard to put a link on the desktop to download any of the available browsers with some info about the merits of each ... prolly most people would download all of them and choose later but IT IS possible to make it simple not that im agreeing with the lawsuit or anything
"mostly watching the human race is like watching dogs watch tv ... they see the pictures move but the meaning escapes them"