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Heard on the radio this morning

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  • L leppie

    Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

    xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
    IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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    originSH
    wrote on last edited by
    #3

    It gets turned into heat, of course this is a small amount of energy but still greater than zero, so I guess they are using a provocative definition of "substantial". As for that energy being wasted, it's not if the weather is cold ... since it's turned into heat its used to warm your house/flat.

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    • M Mustafa Ismail Mustafa

      leppie wrote:

      a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone.

      How is that possible? There is no circuit. [edit] Looks like I need to hit the electronics books again..

      "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." - Rick Cook "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance." Ali ibn Abi Talib "Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?"

      modified on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:42:50 AM

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      originSH
      wrote on last edited by
      #4

      I'd have thought that inside the charger is a transformer made of coils. By removing the one side it increases the resistance massivly but a small trickle will still flow through the mains side and create heat.

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      • L leppie

        Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

        xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
        IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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        blackjack2150
        wrote on last edited by
        #5

        The charger contains a voltage transformer. That transformer has two coils which transfer magnetic energy from one to the other through the process called magnetic induction. The variation of the magnetic field induces an electrical current in the second (output) coil. However, like all processes in nature, it's efficiency is below 100%. That's why the charger heats up when it's working. When it's offline, there's no electric current produced in the output circuit, but the loss of energy from the magnetic induction is still present.

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        • L leppie

          Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

          xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
          IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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          benjymous
          wrote on last edited by
          #6

          Where does the power go? Heat. Go around your house/office now, and look for any devices with external power supplies. Even if they're off, I'll bet the power supplies are warm. The transformer inside most power supplies still seems to operate even when the PSU itself isn't connected to anything!

          -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!

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          • L leppie

            Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

            xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
            IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

            F Offline
            F Offline
            Frank Kerrigan
            wrote on last edited by
            #7

            go back and read your books leppie. A phone charger dependant on design converts AC votage 120/240 volts into DC votlage anywhere between 3 and 12 volts DC. The conversion is primary by a transformer which steps the high voltage down to a smaller voltage by transfer of an eletro-magnatic field. This field transfer incures loss through heat and inefficient transformers. So now we have an AC voltage of 5 volts say; this is then clipped so the negative voltage is lost(more heat loss) and the voltage is smoothed a bit using capicators so it near a constant voltage to charge your phone. All eletronics product heat and the cheaper they are the usually more wasteful they are. AC: Alternating Current a sine wave and changes on a based frequency 50-60 hetz (times per second)A 120 volt AC goes between -120 and +120. DC: Direct Voltage is a constant value ie like a battery.

            Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]

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            • L leppie

              Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

              xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
              IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

              J Offline
              J Offline
              J4amieC
              wrote on last edited by
              #8

              Funnily enough I read this on the britishgas.co.uk website this morning! It says that you will save £4 over the course of a year if you unplug your phone charger when not in use. Hardly substantial, but worthwhile nontheless.

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              • J J4amieC

                Funnily enough I read this on the britishgas.co.uk website this morning! It says that you will save £4 over the course of a year if you unplug your phone charger when not in use. Hardly substantial, but worthwhile nontheless.

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                hairy_hats
                wrote on last edited by
                #9

                I don't understand why anyone wouldn't turn off appliances they weren't using anyway - why pay money to the electricity company for no benefit? My TV, UPS, microwave, just about everything is turned off completely when I'm not using it.

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                • H hairy_hats

                  I don't understand why anyone wouldn't turn off appliances they weren't using anyway - why pay money to the electricity company for no benefit? My TV, UPS, microwave, just about everything is turned off completely when I'm not using it.

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                  DavidNohejl
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #10

                  Correct me if I am wrong but most appliances don't like when they are turned on/off.


                  [My Blog]
                  "Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
                  "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                  • D DavidNohejl

                    Correct me if I am wrong but most appliances don't like when they are turned on/off.


                    [My Blog]
                    "Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
                    "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                    hairy_hats
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #11

                    dnh wrote:

                    Correct me if I am wrong but most appliances don't like when they are turned on/off.

                    I am the Master; they do as they are told.

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                    • H hairy_hats

                      I don't understand why anyone wouldn't turn off appliances they weren't using anyway - why pay money to the electricity company for no benefit? My TV, UPS, microwave, just about everything is turned off completely when I'm not using it.

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                      NormDroid
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #12

                      Why not relocate the isolator switch near your front door, then you can throw the switch to the 'off' position when you leave the house, simple! (Think of all the pennies you'll save).

                      WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath

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                      • L leppie

                        Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

                        xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                        IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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                        Tim Carmichael
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #13

                        This idea was discussed on the news programs of late; the amount of energy lost per person/household is small, but, when you factor in millions or billions of people/households/devices, the energy loss is significant. Tim

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                        • D DavidNohejl

                          Correct me if I am wrong but most appliances don't like when they are turned on/off.


                          [My Blog]
                          "Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
                          "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                          originSH
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #14

                          The change in temperature can cause expansion and contraction which can lead to damage, its much less of a problem with modern maertials and designs though and shouldn't less the lifespan by a considerable amount.

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                          • L leppie

                            Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

                            xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                            IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

                            M Offline
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                            Mike Dimmick
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #15

                            There's always some resistance in any circuit, resulting in power converted to heat. Transformers are a very efficient way of converting power between different voltages, but they're not 100%. Switched-mode power supplies are more efficient on load than linear regulators but still have losses when not loaded. To stop the losses, you have to actually switch in a very high resistance such as an air gap ;) One of the problems in electronics is the difference between the idealised circuits that our maths tells us will work, and the flawed components we actually have to build the circuits out of. Real wires have finite small resistances - the reason that power lines are high-voltage is that the loss in them is proportional to the square of the current (I-squared times R), and increasing the voltage allows the same amount of power to be carried by a smaller current. The higher our working frequencies become, the larger these problems tend to be. People have had problems with circuits which were fine in analysis and when synthesised, but failed in practice due to coupling of traces and RF pickup. Indeed many small Wi-Fi devices simply use a trace on the circuit board as the aerial.

                            DoEvents: Generating unexpected recursion since 1991

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                            • N NormDroid

                              Why not relocate the isolator switch near your front door, then you can throw the switch to the 'off' position when you leave the house, simple! (Think of all the pennies you'll save).

                              WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath

                              H Offline
                              H Offline
                              hairy_hats
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #16

                              Provided I don't have any food in the freezer or fridge and don't want to record anything off tv while I'm out, why not? :) Seems a tad extreme though... :P

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                              • F Frank Kerrigan

                                go back and read your books leppie. A phone charger dependant on design converts AC votage 120/240 volts into DC votlage anywhere between 3 and 12 volts DC. The conversion is primary by a transformer which steps the high voltage down to a smaller voltage by transfer of an eletro-magnatic field. This field transfer incures loss through heat and inefficient transformers. So now we have an AC voltage of 5 volts say; this is then clipped so the negative voltage is lost(more heat loss) and the voltage is smoothed a bit using capicators so it near a constant voltage to charge your phone. All eletronics product heat and the cheaper they are the usually more wasteful they are. AC: Alternating Current a sine wave and changes on a based frequency 50-60 hetz (times per second)A 120 volt AC goes between -120 and +120. DC: Direct Voltage is a constant value ie like a battery.

                                Grady Booch: I told Google to their face...what you need is some serious adult supervision. (2007 Turing lecture) http://www.frankkerrigan.com/[^]

                                L Offline
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                                leppie
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #17

                                I understand that. What I dont understand is the claim that a lot (or any non-nominal amount) of energy is lost on an open circuit.

                                xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                                IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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                                • L leppie

                                  Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

                                  xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                                  IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

                                  A Offline
                                  A Offline
                                  Andrew Torrance
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #18

                                  Chargers will have a no load current , both the transformer and switch mode type will draw some current when the load is disconnected , quite how much will vary tremendously . Without having a circuit diagram infront of me the only real test is : If it gets hot or warm then its possibly significant , if it doesn't it isnt significant .

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                                  • J J4amieC

                                    Funnily enough I read this on the britishgas.co.uk website this morning! It says that you will save £4 over the course of a year if you unplug your phone charger when not in use. Hardly substantial, but worthwhile nontheless.

                                    A Offline
                                    A Offline
                                    Andrew Torrance
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #19

                                    That works out about 4W ( say 10p per KW/h) . That would be quite warm to the touch .

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                                    • L leppie

                                      I understand that. What I dont understand is the claim that a lot (or any non-nominal amount) of energy is lost on an open circuit.

                                      xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                                      IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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                                      Russell Jones
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #20

                                      I guess it depends how you quantify alot. Per transformer the electrical power used may be very small but when you take into account the fact that many people have a charger at work and one at home and the number of people who own mobile phones, the savings could be vast if every person just took the fraction of a second it would take to flick that switch.

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                                      • N NormDroid

                                        Why not relocate the isolator switch near your front door, then you can throw the switch to the 'off' position when you leave the house, simple! (Think of all the pennies you'll save).

                                        WPF - Imagineers Wanted Follow your nose using DoubleAnimationUsingPath

                                        P Offline
                                        P Offline
                                        Ponytail Bob
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #21

                                        I am going to spend several thousand $$$ to maximize efficiency in my home office, making sure that all electical outlets are controlled from a master console that will detect if I am using any electical apparatus. I figure to break even on my electric bill savings right about the time the sun goes supernova. :-D All that being said, most eletrical appliances do have some draw even when turned "off" The "Energy Star" certification here in the US has led to "low standby energy use" and the new rating in 2007 requires 80% power supply efficiency. BobP

                                        http://bobp1339.blogspot.com/

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                                        • L leppie

                                          Apparently, a cell phone charger still uses a substantial amount of electricity even it is not charging the phone. (this was received by the radio host by email, from a person in the UK). Now I only did 1st year engineering electronics, but that smells a lot like cow dung to me. The logical question is, where is the energy going if the phone is not charging? I can understand energy loss while the phone is being charged, but how is energy drained from the charger if it not charging?

                                          xacc.ide - now with IronScheme support
                                          IronScheme - 1.0 alpha 1 out now

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                                          L Offline
                                          Lost User
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #22

                                          'Substantial' probably means about 5% of charging power lost as heat.

                                          Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.

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