In 1989 I Asked The Dumbest Question Ever, But...
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But in this day and age you would have used google to research what "compile" is, a lot of the time it is not the lack of experience that deserves the scorn but the lack of effort. Yes less experienced developers need to be encouraged and nurtured and most experienced developers do have a fairly arrogant attitude at times*, but answering a question that could be found with a couple of minutes on google is wasting both your own and the askers time. Still that was a cracking story and definitely has a point as to making sure your open to new developers and will to help them grow. Got my 5 :) *I think this comes from the fact that you have to believe in yourself and your abilities, I know personally that if I thought I was doing a substandard job then I wouldn't want to do that job anymore.
originSH wrote:
and most experienced developers do have a fairly arrogant attitude at times
I hear what you're saying but I would be more likely to say that most developers who 'think' they're experienced (ie think they know everything) do have a fairly arrogant attitude. In my experience, the guys that I turn to on a regular basis because they enormous amounts of experience are polite, helpful, and treat me as an intellectual equal. I think the majority of the responses that are in the realm of "Why are you wasting my time with that question?" probably stem from not wanting to show that in fact they can't answer it satisfactorily. I always think its funny how some programmers spend time telling people not to post stupid questions as its a waste of their time to respond (LOL spot the irony). Totally agree with the comment about lack of research though. I have a couple of guys I used to work with who ring occasionally for advice. I put their question into Google if I can't answer them off the top of my head and low and behold a working solution. :)
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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Hear hear. I'm (in gamer terms anyway) a total newb with a lot of languages. I have a very (very) general understanding of VB and C++, a little more in-depth knowledge of PHP, ASP and ASP.net, and pretty strong understanding of Javascript. I do web design, so the next logical step is to head into web development and make entire interactive applications, rather than just front ends. I'm more than a little frustrated, though with the number of brick walls I receive when I ask for tips and troubleshooting. I don't get it from everyone (by the way, thank you to all of you who've helped me grow so far) but I'd say about 75% of the people who even respond to my questions tend to have a very negative "if you can't do it now, you'll never be able to. Just give up" attitude towards me. I just want to thank you and everyone else out there with that attitude of cutting some slack for the new guys. As long as the guy asking you for help is actually trying to learn (rather than just copying your code), it can be pretty rewarding to help out. That goes for anything, not just programming. -joequincy (there's only one)
Joe, Thanks for your response. I see that you just joined Code Project. I think you will find a great group of develoers here, willing to help. For our Code Project Forums; Chris has posted a great guide at the top of each forum, "How To Get An Answer To Your Question." When followed by a developer seeking assistance, this really helps out.
Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on the worlds beaches.
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I can't remember the last time I compiled an app. In my programming career I've picked and used languages that don't need the developer to compile; Visual Basic, VBScript in ASP, C# in ASP.NET and now Ruby on Rails and JavaScript. And to be honest even the times I have used C++ and other languages that need a compile for the app. to run I've done it through an IDE like VS that makes "compiling" so simple that most of the details are hidden. With all those kids growing up coding web-sites I imagine "what is compile?" could become a frequent question.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
Paul, It was that Learn QuickBasic editor. It just had a "Run" command. You actually had to be inside the editor to run your program. We have come a long way baby!
Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on the worlds beaches.
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I think this is a great post. I'm not an expert developer, just a beginner really, but I do know a thing or two about knowledge (having studied epistemology in grad school). For all those who see Google as the perfect repository of knowledge...it's not always that simple. Have you considered that in some cases the person asking the question may not even have enough knowledge to know the answer when he/she sees it? I also think it's wrong to assume that said person did not do a search, especially if they know at least a little about what they're talking about. Also consider that to even do an effective level of search you have to have a certain level of knowledge of what you're looking for. It's possible that someone has just stumbled into a completely new domain of knowledge and isn't even aware of it. Or maybe they need a fresh pair of eyes...we've probably all had an experience where we were looking for something that was right under our noses, we just didn't see it for whatever reason... I'm not saying there aren't lazy people out there who would rather just waste your time. Try teaching remedial algebra in college sometime ;P . Just don't assume right off the bat that the person asking the question is one of those people. Just for the record...I personally always exhaust all other resources before asking anywhere, usually spending hours if not days or longer looking...so if I ever post a 'dumb' question, please keep that in mind :-D . BW
BW, Thank you for your input, you bring up some good points.
Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on the worlds beaches.
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BTW, what is compile? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Karl Shifflett wrote:
I think we have a consensus today.
I'd rough morning today... thank you for making my day.... :)
/* I can C */ // or !C Yusuf
Yusuf wrote:
BTW, what is compile?
I think this should have been properly posted on the programming forum. a) If posted on 'C' forums = dumb question. b) If posted on Basic or Scripts forums = good question, but likely not be will answer Forth-coming the. ;) But not to hurt the feelings of a Newbie, I'll provide the answer here. You start with individual pieces of Crap*. You then ComPile the Crap into one big heap. The ComPile then attracts and begins accumulating bugs. After you pile plenty of Crap onto the ComPile, ComPost can begin where the bugs come faster than they can be removed. Each addition of Crap increases the number of bugs, which ends up being critical to the process (endothermic reaction - generates heat). The ComPosting process terminates by loading the ComPiled Crap onto a Crap Processing Unit (CPU), which invariably identifies the bugs for the removal process. A process of recursive Crapping, ComPiling and ComPosting begins. ComPosting agitates the ComPile until you add or remove Crap eventually killing off most of the bugs. If done properly, the Crap is now ComPlete and usable. So, in short, ComPile is the beginning process of turning Crap into something useful. Note that all Crap does not need ComPiled. Visually, some specialized Crap basically ComPiles and ComPosts itself during the Crap creation process, and is therefore known as Basic Visual Crap. *Crap = Creative Reincarnation of Algorithmic Procedures. Note, there are tools designed to help the process, called ComPilers, ComPosters, and deBuggers, but to fully appreciate the process, you should learn to do this by hand. A variety of super-tools, called IDEs (Iterative Debugging Environment) are available to speed along the generation and subsequent removal of bugs. Note, the "C" is capitalized because C is king of all Crap. HTH :rose: Oh, and please feel free to ask more stupid questions. We don't judge here, only entertain.
Gary
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Fellow Lounger's, In 1989 I purchased the book, Learn QuickBasic. It came with a code editor. You could type in your code and run the program. After I learned the language, I wanted to use Btrieve as my record manager. So I got the Btrieve manual and read the instructions for using their libraries. But I couldn't figure out how to use the libraries with the Learn QuickBasic editor. So, I called up Novell tech support. The lady I spoke with told me to link their library in when I compile my application. My question to her was, "
what is compile?" Some would have burned me on the front lawn for such a stupid question. But sometimes (not always) it is a matter of experience, training and context. You see, Learn QuickBasic didn't compile, it ran inside the editor. So from a Learn QuickBasic perspective, it was a valid question. End Result That day I went back to the store and purchased QB 4.5 and learned how to link in libraries and compile an application. Just a year later, Novell came out with Extended Operations for Btrieve. All their examples were in C. Novell couldn't figure out how to tell their QB 4.5 and BC7 customers, how to use the new Extended Operations feature, because Extended Operations required using C UNIONS. UNIONS are not in QB 4.5 or BC7. A very short time after this came out, I was invited to Novell's class on Extended Operations, they even waived my entrance fee. I got to the class and the room was filled with C programmers. After attending the first day of class and learning about UNIONS, I went back to my room and figured out how to do this in QB 4.5 and BC7. In fact the solution was so simple; just use an LSET statement to move the returned data into another data structure. You could also use $BCopy but Novell only wanted standard QB 4.5 statements. Novell wrote their documentation, I got credit and everyone moved on. And this from the guy who asked the dumbest question ever, "what is compile?" Maybe we should cut some of the less experienced developers just a little slack...Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on t
When I was learning Java (web deployed applets) many years ago, I would periodically ask questions on usenet in the java group. I was routinely harassed and insulted by the participants. Unfortunetly, the search engines where just becomming popular and they indexed usenet. Some of my posts from 10 years ago and the evil java programmers replies are still there under my real name. However I did get the answers to what I thought were difficult questions on usenet, that were not in the documentation or not to be had by the then new search engines. I will work very hard to answer my questions before I post on usenet or on this board, I had to suffer it, it's part of the initiation.
MrPlankton
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Fellow Lounger's, In 1989 I purchased the book, Learn QuickBasic. It came with a code editor. You could type in your code and run the program. After I learned the language, I wanted to use Btrieve as my record manager. So I got the Btrieve manual and read the instructions for using their libraries. But I couldn't figure out how to use the libraries with the Learn QuickBasic editor. So, I called up Novell tech support. The lady I spoke with told me to link their library in when I compile my application. My question to her was, "
what is compile?" Some would have burned me on the front lawn for such a stupid question. But sometimes (not always) it is a matter of experience, training and context. You see, Learn QuickBasic didn't compile, it ran inside the editor. So from a Learn QuickBasic perspective, it was a valid question. End Result That day I went back to the store and purchased QB 4.5 and learned how to link in libraries and compile an application. Just a year later, Novell came out with Extended Operations for Btrieve. All their examples were in C. Novell couldn't figure out how to tell their QB 4.5 and BC7 customers, how to use the new Extended Operations feature, because Extended Operations required using C UNIONS. UNIONS are not in QB 4.5 or BC7. A very short time after this came out, I was invited to Novell's class on Extended Operations, they even waived my entrance fee. I got to the class and the room was filled with C programmers. After attending the first day of class and learning about UNIONS, I went back to my room and figured out how to do this in QB 4.5 and BC7. In fact the solution was so simple; just use an LSET statement to move the returned data into another data structure. You could also use $BCopy but Novell only wanted standard QB 4.5 statements. Novell wrote their documentation, I got credit and everyone moved on. And this from the guy who asked the dumbest question ever, "what is compile?" Maybe we should cut some of the less experienced developers just a little slack...Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on t
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Not quite what I learned it stood for!
must be a slow morning, I almost spewed coffee when I saw "free" and I did when I saw yours. Not quite how I learned it either. Of course it reminds me of the Air TV version of Blue-Thunder and their quickly redubbed version of "JAFO" which no longer even sounds like the actor when it is dubbed over... :laugh: as if poor dubbing doesn't point out exactly what was edited and what the word most likely is.... :laugh:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
My personal favorites are Fubar and Snafu, the later of which I used for years before knowing it was an acronym and what it meant. Heck I used it as a kid cause my dad (a Navy man) used it and he didn't even try to correct me, which is amazing considering I got my mouth washed out with soup for saying freaking and friggin' because they were alternates for the F word.
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Indeed and this is both the blessing and curse of modern development, it is a blessing that programming is open to many more people, including those who previously might not have been able to afford the resources needed. It is a curse because it no longer requires the drive and struggle which weeded out those who are lacking either the passion or the skill for programming. I realise that can sound a bit elitest but it is the same for any job which is more of a calling than a means to an end, would you want someone who wasn't passionate about thier work operating on your or working in your garden?
Passion? You believe everyone should be passionate about their work? And that passion defines quality? You imply that ones without a passion for their work are inferior in work quality simply by lack of passion? Passion and pride go hand in hand and can undermine the quality of work. Pride goeth before a fall, they say. Believe it or not, few people in life get to pursue a passion. Most of us are driven by circumstance into whatever "career" path we "choose". There are exceptions, certainly, but those are just that - exceptions. Me, I'd rather skip the passion and go with someone competent.
"I think Bigfoot is blurry, that's the problem. It's not the photographer's fault. Bigfoot is blurry. And that's extra scary to me, because there's a large, out of focus monster roaming the countryside. Run." -Mitch Hedberg
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Fellow Lounger's, In 1989 I purchased the book, Learn QuickBasic. It came with a code editor. You could type in your code and run the program. After I learned the language, I wanted to use Btrieve as my record manager. So I got the Btrieve manual and read the instructions for using their libraries. But I couldn't figure out how to use the libraries with the Learn QuickBasic editor. So, I called up Novell tech support. The lady I spoke with told me to link their library in when I compile my application. My question to her was, "
what is compile?" Some would have burned me on the front lawn for such a stupid question. But sometimes (not always) it is a matter of experience, training and context. You see, Learn QuickBasic didn't compile, it ran inside the editor. So from a Learn QuickBasic perspective, it was a valid question. End Result That day I went back to the store and purchased QB 4.5 and learned how to link in libraries and compile an application. Just a year later, Novell came out with Extended Operations for Btrieve. All their examples were in C. Novell couldn't figure out how to tell their QB 4.5 and BC7 customers, how to use the new Extended Operations feature, because Extended Operations required using C UNIONS. UNIONS are not in QB 4.5 or BC7. A very short time after this came out, I was invited to Novell's class on Extended Operations, they even waived my entrance fee. I got to the class and the room was filled with C programmers. After attending the first day of class and learning about UNIONS, I went back to my room and figured out how to do this in QB 4.5 and BC7. In fact the solution was so simple; just use an LSET statement to move the returned data into another data structure. You could also use $BCopy but Novell only wanted standard QB 4.5 statements. Novell wrote their documentation, I got credit and everyone moved on. And this from the guy who asked the dumbest question ever, "what is compile?" Maybe we should cut some of the less experienced developers just a little slack...Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on t
"Maybe we should cut some of the less experienced developers just a little slack... " Absolutely, In the real world, everyone has a filter, you don't call you boss a mooron, even if he/she is one. On the web most people go straight for the "caveman bash over head" routine. I see in so many situations where a really nice programmer could make something clear to a novice or newbie, but instead bash them over the head with their question and talk down to them. My favorite, look it up on Google, like if i knew exactly what keywords to use I would not have already found what I'm looking for. Sometimes even that one keyword makes a difference from a million sites promoting visual basic and that one site that has a really good tutorial on the subject you are looking for. Or at the very least more information than you had before. That's one reason I like codeproject, you may still get hit over the head occasionally, but there is usually someone nice enough to block for you and help you back up, while putting some jerk in there place to boot. In my line of work, I do not get to know one language completely. I may be in php one week, vb the next and so on. What really gets to me is I know what I want to do and I know the keywords and such in one language. It's trying to figure what it's called and how to do it in another. Sometimes I remember, sometimes not. My brother and I call it the Kelly Bundy Syndrome, you never know what new fact you learn will push something you knew off the bottom of the stack.
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"Maybe we should cut some of the less experienced developers just a little slack... " Absolutely, In the real world, everyone has a filter, you don't call you boss a mooron, even if he/she is one. On the web most people go straight for the "caveman bash over head" routine. I see in so many situations where a really nice programmer could make something clear to a novice or newbie, but instead bash them over the head with their question and talk down to them. My favorite, look it up on Google, like if i knew exactly what keywords to use I would not have already found what I'm looking for. Sometimes even that one keyword makes a difference from a million sites promoting visual basic and that one site that has a really good tutorial on the subject you are looking for. Or at the very least more information than you had before. That's one reason I like codeproject, you may still get hit over the head occasionally, but there is usually someone nice enough to block for you and help you back up, while putting some jerk in there place to boot. In my line of work, I do not get to know one language completely. I may be in php one week, vb the next and so on. What really gets to me is I know what I want to do and I know the keywords and such in one language. It's trying to figure what it's called and how to do it in another. Sometimes I remember, sometimes not. My brother and I call it the Kelly Bundy Syndrome, you never know what new fact you learn will push something you knew off the bottom of the stack.
Thank your for your input. I agree, we have great people here on Code Project. :cool:
Cheers, KarlMy Blog | Mole's Home Page | How To Create Screen Capture Videos For Your ArticlesJust a grain of sand on the worlds beaches.
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But in this day and age you would have used google to research what "compile" is, a lot of the time it is not the lack of experience that deserves the scorn but the lack of effort. Yes less experienced developers need to be encouraged and nurtured and most experienced developers do have a fairly arrogant attitude at times*, but answering a question that could be found with a couple of minutes on google is wasting both your own and the askers time. Still that was a cracking story and definitely has a point as to making sure your open to new developers and will to help them grow. Got my 5 :) *I think this comes from the fact that you have to believe in yourself and your abilities, I know personally that if I thought I was doing a substandard job then I wouldn't want to do that job anymore.
Well. . . . Google and other help areas are great IF you know exactly what to ask for/about, in exactly what terms, and understand all the nuances/variations of what you might get back. Certainly definitions and brief summaries are easy to find, but as a student, I spend more time looking up error messages and fragments from an instructor's brief response than actually getting to work on projects - in great part because to find clear information for something that seems simple literally can take hours of Googling, checking CodeProject and other dev sites, and rereading segments of books with shallow indexes. Need many more hours in the day to start spending on tutes. And, well, I like VS2008 well enough, but using the online help can be pretty vague unless you are already an expert. What is really scary, especially for new devs, is that while there can be many, many ways to solve problems, there are, uh, many, many ways to solve problems, and only experience (coffee, head banging, weeping, coffee, searching for help, coffee, throwing the computer, coffee, etc. . .) can help. Reminds me of a contract where an employer wanted me to blend a brand new intranet wiki with a customer-facing security-enhanced update download tool (3 weeks into the contract)- and I had been brought in strictly as a designer to transfer content from one wiki to another - believe me, I found TONS o'info, and very little that helped. I bought 2 books, searched, had no responsiveness from the new "totally customizable" wiki company, and generally felt very stupid. Guess that's partly what led me to self-torture - er, I mean studying web development. . . ;0)
_________________________________________________ Have a great day!!! -- L.J.
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Hear hear. I'm (in gamer terms anyway) a total newb with a lot of languages. I have a very (very) general understanding of VB and C++, a little more in-depth knowledge of PHP, ASP and ASP.net, and pretty strong understanding of Javascript. I do web design, so the next logical step is to head into web development and make entire interactive applications, rather than just front ends. I'm more than a little frustrated, though with the number of brick walls I receive when I ask for tips and troubleshooting. I don't get it from everyone (by the way, thank you to all of you who've helped me grow so far) but I'd say about 75% of the people who even respond to my questions tend to have a very negative "if you can't do it now, you'll never be able to. Just give up" attitude towards me. I just want to thank you and everyone else out there with that attitude of cutting some slack for the new guys. As long as the guy asking you for help is actually trying to learn (rather than just copying your code), it can be pretty rewarding to help out. That goes for anything, not just programming. -joequincy (there's only one)