MSDN License
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Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
But me, I use a *LOT* of the software, even if it's just to get a basic idea of what it does. Plus, all the operating systems are a great help with testing. It's also nice to get the early access to stuff when it's released on MSDN first.
Yikes, if that's all you're using it for that's hardly a justification is it? ;) YOu can download trials if you just want to get a feel for something. Most testing only involves a couple of os's, three at the most, often ones you need anyway to run servers or for workstations. Early access isn't good, it's a penalty, you've become a paying beta tester for Microsoft. Sql server comes free as sql express, no need to pay for it for development. Seriously everything you're saying I once said to justify the pricey MSDN universal that we carried over for many years, I remember thinking wow we get *all* this stuff, it seemed crazy not to subscribe but in the end it was a collosal waste of money because we barely used most of the products in it and a lot of them we did use really couldn't be justified financially as there were cheaper alternatives that were just as useful. As a small business person I just can't justify wasting any money and it doesn't hurt to take a cold hard look at what you actually need, whip out a calculator and figure the costs either way factoring in the ongoing renewal fees and the potential for a product to *not* be updated in any given year you're paying still for the subscription.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
You can get free trials of some stuff, but not all of it. A lot of it you need to order CD's, and don't have a single place to get it at. Sql server comes free as sql express, no need to pay for it for development. While SQL Express is a nice product, saying this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the Express and real versions. For example, let's say you're developing an app that requires high performance. With SQL Express, you can't do any real benchmarking because it only lets you use one CPU, and 1 GB of RAM, nor is there a 64 bit version. Then there's the missing features, like Indexed views, no tools like profiling or query analyzer, etc.. SQL Express is fine for a website, but impossible to use for developing real enterprise apps. However, SQL Developer edition is only $45 but that's just adding to the list. And whether or not i'm a paying beta tester doesn't change the fact I need my software to work on new OS's *BEFORE* my clients get their hands on them.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
There are a few options. The cheapest is to join the Microsoft Empower ISV program[^], which will give you a a MSDN Premium membership for up to 5 developers at a cost of $375 for one year, with an option to renew for an additional year at the same price. 2 years max, and only one per "company".
And you agree to release one packaged (i.e. it must be resellable and can't be produced for one customer specifically) commercial product within the program duration. By the way - anyone knows what happens if you don't do this? I couldn't find any information on the Internet so far.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
There's really nothing they can do. I have a friend that signed up a few years ago, and after a year in development, the project basically went belly-up... nothing happened there. If you want to meet the terms, just release some utilities that you write... doesn't say it has to be a GOOD program ;)
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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You can get free trials of some stuff, but not all of it. A lot of it you need to order CD's, and don't have a single place to get it at. Sql server comes free as sql express, no need to pay for it for development. While SQL Express is a nice product, saying this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the Express and real versions. For example, let's say you're developing an app that requires high performance. With SQL Express, you can't do any real benchmarking because it only lets you use one CPU, and 1 GB of RAM, nor is there a 64 bit version. Then there's the missing features, like Indexed views, no tools like profiling or query analyzer, etc.. SQL Express is fine for a website, but impossible to use for developing real enterprise apps. However, SQL Developer edition is only $45 but that's just adding to the list. And whether or not i'm a paying beta tester doesn't change the fact I need my software to work on new OS's *BEFORE* my clients get their hands on them.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
saying this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the Express and real versions.
:rolleyes: Give me a fucking break.
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
SQL Express is fine for a website, but impossible to use for developing real enterprise apps.
Not everyone is developing enterprise apps and not everyone who is needs a full blown sql server for development, for testing perhaps but not for development. And what's you're point anyway? We're not all idiots here after all. If someone is developing enterprise apps I'm quite sure they know what they require and if someone doesn't know if they require it they probably don't but it's easy enough to find out. Saving money may not make sense to you in your world but where I come as the owner of a business it's simply ludicrous to throw money out the window for no good reason whatsoever. Rather than jumping all over me for being some kind of heretic perhaps read what I wrote which is to summarize: not everyone needs a full subscription, a subscription has ongoing costs that are often overlooked, not all products that you do need are updated every year but you're paying anyway and finally it's easy to make a checklist of what you need, add it up, factor in the costs up front and ongoing of a subscription and figure out which way is best to go. In super summary: A subscription is not always the most econmically feasible way to go.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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There's really nothing they can do. I have a friend that signed up a few years ago, and after a year in development, the project basically went belly-up... nothing happened there. If you want to meet the terms, just release some utilities that you write... doesn't say it has to be a GOOD program ;)
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
There's really nothing they can do. I have a friend that signed up a few years ago, and after a year in development, the project basically went belly-up... nothing happened there.
I found this[^] today, written by a Microsoft Ireland employee obviously. It says: "You have to work to develop a product/service using Microsoft technologies - but there is no penalty if you don't release the product within the term of the program." Unfortunately the official Empower website doesn't say anything on the subject.
Kind regards, Pawel Krakowiak Miraculum Software[^] Freelance services, outsourcing & consulting.
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Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
saying this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the Express and real versions.
:rolleyes: Give me a fucking break.
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
SQL Express is fine for a website, but impossible to use for developing real enterprise apps.
Not everyone is developing enterprise apps and not everyone who is needs a full blown sql server for development, for testing perhaps but not for development. And what's you're point anyway? We're not all idiots here after all. If someone is developing enterprise apps I'm quite sure they know what they require and if someone doesn't know if they require it they probably don't but it's easy enough to find out. Saving money may not make sense to you in your world but where I come as the owner of a business it's simply ludicrous to throw money out the window for no good reason whatsoever. Rather than jumping all over me for being some kind of heretic perhaps read what I wrote which is to summarize: not everyone needs a full subscription, a subscription has ongoing costs that are often overlooked, not all products that you do need are updated every year but you're paying anyway and finally it's easy to make a checklist of what you need, add it up, factor in the costs up front and ongoing of a subscription and figure out which way is best to go. In super summary: A subscription is not always the most econmically feasible way to go.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
I prefer to have the MSDN available as "insurance". If I need something, it's there. I don't have to go find a copy, wait for CD's to be delivered, etc.. I get access to betas and final stuff early, and I've more than mad up for my investment. Another added bonus is that you get all the various language versions as well, which means you can see if your app looks ok on a Japanese edition, where all the dialogs are of different sizes. My point, however, was that you seemed to be saying MSDN isn't worth it. For many people it is. For some people it's not. But you can't argue that the Empower pricing is hard to resist.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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I prefer to have the MSDN available as "insurance". If I need something, it's there. I don't have to go find a copy, wait for CD's to be delivered, etc.. I get access to betas and final stuff early, and I've more than mad up for my investment. Another added bonus is that you get all the various language versions as well, which means you can see if your app looks ok on a Japanese edition, where all the dialogs are of different sizes. My point, however, was that you seemed to be saying MSDN isn't worth it. For many people it is. For some people it's not. But you can't argue that the Empower pricing is hard to resist.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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I am close to buy the Visual Studio 2008 Professional with MSDN Premium subscription, to the price of 2500 USD (roughly 2500 CAD, so it is a good time for me to buy it). I was wondering if there are other, cheaper (but legal) channels to buy this subscription. Maybe through Code Project ?!?
Hey, try Programmers Paradise, or TechExtend and check out the 2 and 3 year license programs. They should be able to save you a couple hundred off list. That's a three year license for under $2200. I've had good luck with them. http://www.programmers.com/ppi\_us/SearchResults.aspx?SearchPhrase=msdn+premium You need to call and talk to a rep. to get the best price.
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I am close to buy the Visual Studio 2008 Professional with MSDN Premium subscription, to the price of 2500 USD (roughly 2500 CAD, so it is a good time for me to buy it). I was wondering if there are other, cheaper (but legal) channels to buy this subscription. Maybe through Code Project ?!?
All you need to do is go to the Microsoft events. I get all the software I need by attending the free events. Within the last year I have acquired (attending free events): 3 copies of Office 2007 1 copy of Vista Ultimate 32 1 copy of Vista Ultimate 64 1 copy of Enterprise Server 2003 1 copy of VS 2008 1 copy of SQL Server 2005 ....and more I'm probably forgetting! I just go to a boring Microsoft event and score, big time. From what I gather, they are giving away Server 2008, VS 2008, and SQL 2008 at the next event (which I pre-registered for). Who needs an MSDN subscription with all the freebies you get from the events.
ICP-Fan (The Keyboard Wielding Maniac)
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You can get free trials of some stuff, but not all of it. A lot of it you need to order CD's, and don't have a single place to get it at. Sql server comes free as sql express, no need to pay for it for development. While SQL Express is a nice product, saying this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between the Express and real versions. For example, let's say you're developing an app that requires high performance. With SQL Express, you can't do any real benchmarking because it only lets you use one CPU, and 1 GB of RAM, nor is there a 64 bit version. Then there's the missing features, like Indexed views, no tools like profiling or query analyzer, etc.. SQL Express is fine for a website, but impossible to use for developing real enterprise apps. However, SQL Developer edition is only $45 but that's just adding to the list. And whether or not i'm a paying beta tester doesn't change the fact I need my software to work on new OS's *BEFORE* my clients get their hands on them.
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
For example, let's say you're developing an app that requires high performance. With SQL Express, you can't do any real benchmarking because it only lets you use one CPU, and 1 GB of RAM, nor is there a 64 bit version. Then there's the missing features, like Indexed views, no tools like profiling or query analyzer, etc..
If that is the demands of your project and buying a single license at 2500 is a significant budget item then it would suggest that something is seriously wrong with either your business model or your pricing structure.
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I am close to buy the Visual Studio 2008 Professional with MSDN Premium subscription, to the price of 2500 USD (roughly 2500 CAD, so it is a good time for me to buy it). I was wondering if there are other, cheaper (but legal) channels to buy this subscription. Maybe through Code Project ?!?
Check out partners.microsoft.com. They have an Action Pack that costs only $300.00 USD per year. If you complete the developer assessment (very easy), you get VS2008 Standard Edition. The Action Pack comes with a whole bunch of other tools like 10 licenses for Office 2007 Professional, various server solutions, and more. I get it every year. I never have to buy an OS, Office Solution, and now Visual Studio.