Why is ASP so SLOW?! [modified]
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Chris Maunder wrote:
and have more back-end processing?
some people like front end processing, others back end processing.... to each their own. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
> Let the flame war begin! Very simple and obvious on any CLR/JVM app you can think of.. They have huge frameworks behind, too many classes (re: instances will follow), complex dependancies, too many events (even TPs or even event pools don't help there), too many abstractions that keep 'wrapping' inefficiency under inefficiency (aka reflection, object casts, etc). Bring in the GC into all and you got what you've asked for. Dataset (a hack), Generics (a hack, look at the collections IL yourself:), WPF (ex mega-slow IE tech + giving a string to every field on the planet, flaky framework but hey it has coolness all over it), ASP.NET page model ( ugh ).. it is all over the place, collections, compiler starting to go against you, linq to streaming data deficiency. Need more? VMs have given object-based systems an attribute of: the slowest one (in the history of computing). There is nothing out there that can beat its slowness apart from BEA based and similar stacks (again VM). Gotta love it though.. otherwise you'll be looked at in a strange way anywhere you go (by not buying the crp that it scales better than slightly sophisticated interpreted based systems do ). For proof, just look at how lightingly fast Google is and all its infrastructure is accessed mostly via interpreted or script pieces on server-side. And it is all data-driven. Just because VMs do name to metadata tokens translation well, abstract you from binary contract, or because it does clever JIT optims, it doesn't mean hardware is not running away from that flawed abstraction above. Hence the software getting slower and slower. But yes, it does help to start simple and with a clean, simple, productive model such as .NET (than feed/scrap it to a proper framework-less *environment* ) So, over-simplifying with their mass-market recommendations while over-engineering aka Java-like productions.And it is still not polished to a level it could be, and I doubt it ever will be before it is replaced by something much, much simpler and more efficient.. Don't buy msdn blogs propaganda either, especially from PMs, it never delivered that spectacular work as hyped. Never will do.. it is becoming clearer than clean 100% Pure Orange Expensive Juice.
modified on Tuesday, February 26, 2008 6:55 PM
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This thread is generating more anonymous 1-votes than I thought it would. Thank you for posting a question instead (even it it is vague). I am not downplaying the importance of good design, which can occur (or be absent) using any programming language, scripting or compiled. Which point did you want clarification on?
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This thread is generating more anonymous 1-votes than I thought it would. Thank you for posting a question instead (even it it is vague). I am not downplaying the importance of good design, which can occur (or be absent) using any programming language, scripting or compiled. Which point did you want clarification on?
jesarg wrote:
Sites implemented in .NET (and Java EE, for that matter) tend to be higher-traffic sites than the ones written in scripting languages such as PHP or Perl.
That point. My question, better worded, is: Is this a conclusion of some study that has been done? My first counter-example to that would be Facebook. It is PHP and has an enormous amount of traffic.
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
I've worked on some *fast* ASP.NET[^] sites, so it isn't a technological limitation. ASP.NET and PHP are targeted at two different types of developers. ASP.NET development is targeted at developers that just want to drop a bunch of controls on a form and have VS and the compiler work it's magic and poof you have a web site. They typically don't care that it takes a bunch of viewstate and extra page loads to make it happen. Plus to write fast ASP.NET code you have to limit the number of controls you use on a page, again something that goes against the form designer approach. I haven't used PHP, but I'm betting you are forced to deal with HTML and http requests more directly with less overhead. You end up having to do the same with ASP.NET if you care about performance and scalability, but it's rarely essential.
This blanket smells like ham
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jesarg wrote:
Sites implemented in .NET (and Java EE, for that matter) tend to be higher-traffic sites than the ones written in scripting languages such as PHP or Perl.
That point. My question, better worded, is: Is this a conclusion of some study that has been done? My first counter-example to that would be Facebook. It is PHP and has an enormous amount of traffic.
Yes, I know that some high-volume sites are written in scripting languages. Yahoo also writes web applications in PHP. I said that higher-traffic sites tend to be written in compiled languages (and even pointed out that some are written in PHP). Almost all customer-facing financial applications for major banks are written in compiled languages nowadays, and from what I see, other industries that are writing new high-volume web applications are going the same route. No, I don't do formal studies, as I've been out of college for a few years now, but I and my friends and former co-workers work for a variety of different software development houses, some of which focus on compiled languages and some of which focus on scripting languages. (And facebook was slow just a few minutes ago, btw) :)
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Because ASP.NET sites tend to push the technology harder and have more back-end processing? Let the flame war begin! :D Site speed (for large data driven sites) is usually a function of the database backend. PHP and ASP.NET will be around the same speed (slow) if the data access is terrible.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
So why is CodeProject so so? :halo:
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
I think what you mean is "Why are asp.net sites so slow?" Just because a website may be slow doesn't mean the technology used is slow. A lot of things affect the site speed, the biggest 2 being 1) volume of HTML, images, css linkes, etc.. and 2) Complexity of the database queries, and how well they're written. In general, my experience has been that ASP.NET is significantly faster than scripted ASP or PHP, but it's also a lot more poweful. When you put power in the hands of a developer, they use that power, and before you know it they're doing 20 SQL Queries with 55 internal joins, taking 15 seconds just to execute the sql query. PHP, frankly, requires a lot more work to do complex things, so most PHP sites are not that complex. There are the few exceptions...
-- Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
Didn't read all replies, but from what I know...ASP.Net was/still is a horrible mistake and a freak of nature. Granted, it was a step forward from classic ASP, but with all the ViewStates and Postbacks...those didn't add much value. Quite the contrary, actually. MVC framework looks promising, and will make web development (at least on the .Net platform) easier, but until then, ASP.Net is just a pretty messed up framework, which, if you look in the sources, was clearly quite hastily written, and still is half-baked. And yeah, I know, I'll be 1'ed for this..
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Didn't read all replies, but from what I know...ASP.Net was/still is a horrible mistake and a freak of nature. Granted, it was a step forward from classic ASP, but with all the ViewStates and Postbacks...those didn't add much value. Quite the contrary, actually. MVC framework looks promising, and will make web development (at least on the .Net platform) easier, but until then, ASP.Net is just a pretty messed up framework, which, if you look in the sources, was clearly quite hastily written, and still is half-baked. And yeah, I know, I'll be 1'ed for this..
There are way too many variables involved to have a valid discussion on this topic without some specific real world comparisons. Experience of the coder, the equipment the code is running on, the bandwidth available at the site, the network flow between you and the site, your available bandwidth, how many processes/services/pornware is running on your system, type of information that is flowing. Not to mention the FACT that HTTP was designed for moving text from one place to another and we have added all of this other payload over the years without really changing the protocol much. Having worked with several JIT languages over the years, I would put .NET at even odds against any other JIT language for similar tasks with competent programmers at the keyboard. And really, comparing Google with a world class data center with clustered servers proper load balancing etc to average joes asp site running on a single server system with txt file database does not make your point for anyone who has a clue about how things really work. And by the way, unless you specifically reference the extraneous libraries for you ASP.NET application, they are not compiled in making the bloat is the reason argument off base. Just my 2 cents
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???
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
:(
Christian Graus wrote:
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
:sigh: what???????????
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Sites implemented in .NET (and Java EE, for that matter) tend to be higher-traffic sites than the ones written in scripting languages such as PHP or Perl. The high-traffic sites that are implemented in PHP are slow during peak times, too.
Nothing personal but that is absolute rubbish.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Because ASP.NET sites tend to push the technology harder and have more back-end processing? Let the flame war begin! :D Site speed (for large data driven sites) is usually a function of the database backend. PHP and ASP.NET will be around the same speed (slow) if the data access is terrible.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Because ASP.NET sites tend to push the technology harder and have more back-end processing? Let the flame war begin! Site speed (for large data driven sites) is usually a function of the database backend. PHP and ASP.NET will be around the same speed (slow) if the data access is terrible. Tshepiso Mogoswane Jnr Developer: and what would be the best way to access data????
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
A dynamic site can be "slow" if ... 1. The server is a piece of junk (Low / Slow ram, slow HDD, low CPU). 2. The servers bandwidth is low (or the HOST is not delivering what he promised ???) 3. Different OS (Windows, Linux, ... etc). 4. The server is limiting concurent connections. 5. The sites design (DB tables for that matter) is not good. 5a. Not indexed tables. 5b. MyISAM / InnoDB bad selection (for mySQL). 5c. Not needed * in SELECT statements 5d. Loading files & images from the DB (Not a bad thing though ..) ... so if someone is determined to test if PHP/ASP is better than he must first make sure that the above causes of "Slowlyness" are eliminated (or are present) for both PHP and ASP sites.
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Christian Graus wrote:
asp and aspx are two totally different things.
sure because remember, not matter where you go, there you are.
led mike
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
You're a child of the internet? Was it your mother or your father? Was your other parent a toaster?
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
Good question, I have developed sites in both and this is not intended as a biased statement on any platform\language. In my own experience: * PHP gives the developer a very slimmed down model which you have to build up on - this results in lots of code and a mind set where you have to build in functions etc from the outset of your page. This kind of programming model is useful for forums as the majority of the required code is function and display based stuff. * ASP (particularly .NET) gives you a fuller model where if you want a particular set of functionality at a later date you can call it up pretty easily, but it takes a lot more work to slim down the model for optimisation purposes. If you follow the MS line you look more at thread processing and hardware optimisations, but I normally find performance problems are traced back to the database used. As people have mentioned before it is often not the language or platform, but the developers who slow things up by hack coding or poor design - if you are familiar with a language you learn the optimum coding patterns I guess.
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
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Didn't read all replies, but from what I know...ASP.Net was/still is a horrible mistake and a freak of nature. Granted, it was a step forward from classic ASP, but with all the ViewStates and Postbacks...those didn't add much value. Quite the contrary, actually. MVC framework looks promising, and will make web development (at least on the .Net platform) easier, but until then, ASP.Net is just a pretty messed up framework, which, if you look in the sources, was clearly quite hastily written, and still is half-baked. And yeah, I know, I'll be 1'ed for this..
Got my 5. Though I will say you can write performant ASP.NET sites. Web-app performance issues are rarely down to the language/framework used. They are largely down to poorly configured servers, bad front-end code and database problems.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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I just had an interesting question. I've used many websites, being a child of the internet. And, in all my days of surfing, I've found that, in general, PHP-driven sites generally take less time to load than ASP sites. I've found that in about 4/5 cases (particularly with forums), sites that are obviously ASP-driven (you can see the .asp(x) extension in the URLs) often take several seconds longer to load than similar pages that are obviously PHP-driven. Any suggestions on why this seems to be? (I'm not saying ASP /IS/ slower... just that it /seems/ slower - my answer to my own question would be "Microsoft", which should explain everything, but I want the nitty gritty details!)
modified on Wednesday, February 27, 2008 7:33 PM
ASP.NET gives you more rope to hang yourself with but so do most modern frameworks. Saying that it is rarely the fault of the language or framework. Most commonly it is poor front-end code giving perceived slowness, poorly configured servers* and badly written database code. Databases cause a lot of issues that a bit of tweaking and refactoring can help with. * I've seen/built my fair share of websites that are slow and yet use just 1% of the available resources.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote:
At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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It's because IIS is driven by hamsters, while Apache is driven by gerbils. The gerbils run slightly faster than the hamsters but they wear out more quickly. That's why Apache has so many plug-in modules - it saves the server administrator from having to replace so many gerbils all the time.
Please don't bother me... I'm hacking right now. Don't look at me like that - doesn't anybody remember what "hacking" really means? :sigh: