A career question
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get a BS and jump right into the work force. that's what i did, anyway. worked out well for me. i've never heard anyone say they needed a developer with a post-grad degree. what employers really want are developers with work experience. of course, if you prefer the academic side of things, and want a post-grad degree, there are probably jobs out there where such a thing will help. but i'd say those jobs are the exception, rather than the rule.
Chris Losinger wrote:
what employers really want are developers with work experience.
Most bosses don't have a Ph.D., they probably feel bad for paying Ph.D. low wage, so they end up not hiring any Ph.D. which literally starved some Ph.D. to death. :-D I used to hide my Ph.D. when looking for a job. Once you get some real experience, it does not matter any more. People would say, "Ah, a Ph.D., nice".
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
I think it all depends on your personality. Once you started to work, it is very hard to get back to a Ph.D. program. Some people regret later in life for not getting a Ph.D. when they were young and full of energy.
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Please explain how a PhD is useful.
People will call you a doctor! Doctor Gary. How does it sound? :)
[My Blog]
"Visual studio desperately needs some performance improvements. It is sometimes almost as slow as eclipse." - Rüdiger Klaehn
"Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfednh wrote:
People will call you a doctor!
Right. If they don't, I will remind them to. My name tag in office and my business card both say "Dr. Xiangyang Liu". :laugh:
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
If you were in a western country Canada/US/Europe I would say blow off programming all together and try get an MBA with a Project Management Certification. If you were in India/China/Former Soviet block your choices sound good. But you live in Turkey, and are in-between. The question is how does your compensation rates compare with the rent-a-coder people.?
MrPlankton
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
I'm currently working and getting my Masters degree. One day, maybe in 10 years time I hope to get my PhD. But that's because I have other motives. I worked along with some proffessors back duting my BSc days and I loved it, also, I personally want to teach at the university level. That's on the academic side. On the professional side, let me tell you, with the work I've had to face, bar the exception of the telecommunication protocols and the database design (even then not all of it) almost nothing came out of academia. You could easily see the connection, but practicality and common every day engineering and common sense got past the academic part of it. In the end, the focus that you're looking for is your choice and it is what will help you decide.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "The secret to a long and healthy life is simple. Don't get ill and don't die." Pete O'Hanlon, courtesy of Rama "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
Experience weighs more than degrees however, nothing wins an argument faster than, "I got my PhD in Computer Science from X, where did you get yours". Other than being a pedantic a** experience should get you further.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway -
a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
I don't have a degree and I haven't had any problem finding work - but I was lucky enough to get experience right at the start of the big boom in the computer fields, when there were far too few people with degrees to fill all the positions everyone was trying to fill. I have no problems getting gigs without that degree. However, I'm working on my BS in IT right now, and I plan to go on to take an MBA with an IT Management specialization as soon as I'm through. Why? Because I've come to a point where I realize I want positions that are more focused on project management, and a lot of THOSE positions are actually shopping for people with degrees. Plus, while I've done a lot of hands-on, down and dirty learning over the years, I know that I've also done *targeted* learning. By that I mean that I've focused on the stuff I really needed to know at the time, and on practical application, without really taking much time to study the big picture or to understand the theory thoroughly. By taking courses, I'm getting a chance to gain that broader stroke of knowledege, and indulge my love of learning. Ph.D.? Nah, highly unlikely for me! I'd be more likely to go back and get another masters in something else than to torture myself with a doctorate program! Plus, as many others have said, a doctorate tends to make you either over-qualified or look too much like an academic (I know, it's silly - if you still have tons of experience on the resume that show you have real-world applied skills, it shouldn't matter, but still....)
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
Unfortunately no one can answer your question except you. What do you want? Where do you see yourself? What is your ultimate goal? What are your immediate responsibilities? Have you researched what is needed? Start with small steps, you will get where you are going. Do you love to learn? Do you eventually want to teach? If you have the chance to do what you want - Go for it! Otherwise you might be a 40 year old, soon to be an upper level executive, wanting to be a rocket scientist, trying to figure out how accomplish your dream before time runs out to do something special with your life. It is easier to convince people around you that your dreams are valid when you are younger. As you get older the expectations change, and your find yourself living up to others expectations, instead of your own. Run to your dream, and don't let anything stop you. Plan your path, even if you take a detour, and you will have an interesting journey.
Joanne Cassick Current Accountant Finished my Accounting Degree, IT degree, and almost done with Business Degree
Albert Einstein "The important thing is not to stop questioning."
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Chris Losinger wrote:
what employers really want are developers with work experience.
Most bosses don't have a Ph.D., they probably feel bad for paying Ph.D. low wage, so they end up not hiring any Ph.D. which literally starved some Ph.D. to death. :-D I used to hide my Ph.D. when looking for a job. Once you get some real experience, it does not matter any more. People would say, "Ah, a Ph.D., nice".
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
Personally I think you should do what you want. I believe a higher education in a technical field is about as worthwhile as toilet paper when you get into the job market if you actually plan to do something rather than manage or teach or research something, wheras real world experience is priceless and will take you extremely far and the fundamentals can be learned in a much shorter period of time. Give me a stack of books and a couple of months and I could probably learn the equivalent of any masters degree, couple that with real world on the job experience and "Bob's your lobster" as they say. I'm sure many with degrees will vehemently disagree with me but I've found this to be true in the real world job market. If I'm hiring a programmer the one who has the real world experience gets the job *every* time over the one with the degree and no experience. In fact I wouldn't even consider the degreed programmer with no experience, I'd shred the resume and move on and even if they did have experience I'd be highly doubtful that they could ever fit in as a part of any team of people. All the people I know with degrees are far happier discussing things than actually getting the job done. But perhaps most importantly of all, if you are young it's a terrible mistake to go to university or college without getting some real world experience in...well in *anything* really. Take a few years to travel and or work at a variety of jobs, learn how to deal with people and be a well rounded human being then you will really appreciate higher learning and take full advantage of it and when you come out you will not be a socially retarded ivory tower git like some of the people that hang out here. ;)
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
modified on Monday, March 3, 2008 2:24 AM
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Xiangyang Liu wrote:
I used to hide my Ph.D. when looking for a job.
If you had to hide it, you were looking for the wrong kind of job.
Doing my part to piss off the religious right.
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sacoskun wrote:
b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years)
Definitely go for a PhD! It is fun and useful. The career can wait a little. jhaga
Recommended site: Parhaat yritykset
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Experience weighs more than degrees however, nothing wins an argument faster than, "I got my PhD in Computer Science from X, where did you get yours". Other than being a pedantic a** experience should get you further.
Need a C# Consultant? I'm available.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest HemingwayTrue, but then again, stating exactly in which trench you got your experience in is no little feat either. Having years of experience is also ends an argument just as fast. I have my dad as living proof of that :laugh: 5-ed to reset the balance.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "The secret to a long and healthy life is simple. Don't get ill and don't die." Pete O'Hanlon, courtesy of Rama "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
Please explain how a PhD is useful.
If you are only going to program you don't need a degree. But for anybody interested in doing research a PhD is a must. And there are a lot of jobs outside the universities. Bioinformatics (where I have worked many years) needs software engineers with at least a master's degree. And if you want more options it is always a good investment to study som more years. jhaga
Recommended site: Parhaat yritykset
Your experience is not the norm, however if the original poster is interested in teaching or pure research then I would have guessed they wouldn't be asking the question. Personally I think a younger person should avoid pursuing any degree until they've lived a while in the real world and become a rounded person who can then go on to fully appreciate the higher learning experience and what it's worth.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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I don't have a degree and I haven't had any problem finding work - but I was lucky enough to get experience right at the start of the big boom in the computer fields, when there were far too few people with degrees to fill all the positions everyone was trying to fill. I have no problems getting gigs without that degree. However, I'm working on my BS in IT right now, and I plan to go on to take an MBA with an IT Management specialization as soon as I'm through. Why? Because I've come to a point where I realize I want positions that are more focused on project management, and a lot of THOSE positions are actually shopping for people with degrees. Plus, while I've done a lot of hands-on, down and dirty learning over the years, I know that I've also done *targeted* learning. By that I mean that I've focused on the stuff I really needed to know at the time, and on practical application, without really taking much time to study the big picture or to understand the theory thoroughly. By taking courses, I'm getting a chance to gain that broader stroke of knowledege, and indulge my love of learning. Ph.D.? Nah, highly unlikely for me! I'd be more likely to go back and get another masters in something else than to torture myself with a doctorate program! Plus, as many others have said, a doctorate tends to make you either over-qualified or look too much like an academic (I know, it's silly - if you still have tons of experience on the resume that show you have real-world applied skills, it shouldn't matter, but still....)
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
ResidentGeek wrote:
By that I mean that I've focused on the stuff I really needed to know at the time, and on practical application, without really taking much time to study the big picture or to understand the theory thoroughly. By taking courses, I'm getting a chance to gain that broader stroke of knowledege, and indulge my love of learning.
But surely you can do that on your own as well (assuming you didn't need a degree to please the recruiting office)?
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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I have no degree at all. The hard thing is getting the first job with no qualifications. I got lucky. From there, I worked hard, and now I have more work than I can deal with, and no-one ever asks what my qualifications are - my work history speaks for itself.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Hey Christian, thanks for your message, it really gave me a good feeling about what I'm doing, I have no qualification at all "no degree of any kind" just a two year diploma from NIIT and I was feeling really down that I had to get involved in some accountancy studies "the British affiliation degree" called ACCA. I'm proud to say I'm a C# developer and there's almost nothing I cant develop as I've been coding for fun for the last couple of years, I have developed around 40 cool applications of my own here on this laptop, now I'm working for UNDP as a consultant. Last night I had a dream and in the dream I was in Canada and I met guys from cp:).. "of course Christian was one of them:).. Anyhow, I wanted to ask you Christian as you're living in Canada.. Do you recommend me to immegrate and work in Canada as a skilled worker?? Please Christian, I'm asking you cuz I'll take your answer as one of the most important decisions I've taken in my life. "actually you've taken:p" ps. I'd love to work with you for cp one day when I'm at your skill level:).. See you in Canada my friend:)
Smile: A curve that can set a lot of things straight! (\ /) (O.o) (><)
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ResidentGeek wrote:
By that I mean that I've focused on the stuff I really needed to know at the time, and on practical application, without really taking much time to study the big picture or to understand the theory thoroughly. By taking courses, I'm getting a chance to gain that broader stroke of knowledege, and indulge my love of learning.
But surely you can do that on your own as well (assuming you didn't need a degree to please the recruiting office)?
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
John C wrote:
But surely you can do that on your own as well (assuming you didn't need a degree to please the recruiting office)?
Certainly I can do that on my own, as well - that's generally how I've learned the stuff I've needed to learn, after all. But I find that unless there's some driving factor (like, oh, an exam that I'll have to take for a class I'm paying for!) those sorts of not-immediately-essential but interesting/useful items tend to become lower priority and get pushed out by anything that has more immediate impact, at least in the short term. A class reminds me to prioritize the time to do some of that learning NOW. Additionally, I find the interaction with a mentor/professor/fellow students to enhance the learning process, and sometimes brings me to a more complete understanding, or to see alternatives I might not have seen on my own. Plus, of course, there is that benefit (artificial or not) of having the degree in the end. Even if it wasn't a plus at the recruiting office, I still find that having tangible evidence of some sort that I've had the discipline to successfully prove that I've learned a specific skill does have some satisfaction for me, and that Uni degree will likely be more useful in the purpose of getting me in the door initially where my experience and skill will take care of the rest of it, one hopes! ;P
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
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John C wrote:
But surely you can do that on your own as well (assuming you didn't need a degree to please the recruiting office)?
Certainly I can do that on my own, as well - that's generally how I've learned the stuff I've needed to learn, after all. But I find that unless there's some driving factor (like, oh, an exam that I'll have to take for a class I'm paying for!) those sorts of not-immediately-essential but interesting/useful items tend to become lower priority and get pushed out by anything that has more immediate impact, at least in the short term. A class reminds me to prioritize the time to do some of that learning NOW. Additionally, I find the interaction with a mentor/professor/fellow students to enhance the learning process, and sometimes brings me to a more complete understanding, or to see alternatives I might not have seen on my own. Plus, of course, there is that benefit (artificial or not) of having the degree in the end. Even if it wasn't a plus at the recruiting office, I still find that having tangible evidence of some sort that I've had the discipline to successfully prove that I've learned a specific skill does have some satisfaction for me, and that Uni degree will likely be more useful in the purpose of getting me in the door initially where my experience and skill will take care of the rest of it, one hopes! ;P
Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)
ResidentGeek wrote:
there's some driving factor (like, oh, an exam that I'll have to take for a class I'm paying for!) those sorts of not-immediately-essential but interesting/useful items tend to become lower priority and get pushed out by anything that has more immediate impact
I am so opposite: when I'm told I *have* to learn anything I'll learn what I have to and remember it for exactly as long as I need to and not a second beyond, I had no problem passing tests all my life but it's in one ear and out the other as quickly as possible. On the other hand if I'm interested in something on my own I'll learn about it exhaustively, every last detail until there's no scrap of information left and will generally retain most of it that is in any way interesting. Formalized education and myself are like fire and water.
When everyone is a hero no one is a hero.
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
Just be aware that most of the advice you are seeing here is coloured by the (often limited) experience of the poster (as is this post). At the risk of adding another generalisation, most of the generalisations made (e.g. PhDs do or don't xxx etc) are mainly a result of limited experiences. I have seen PhDs that I'd struggle to employ as a technician and good graduates that are as good as any PhD. If you are considering a doctorate then you are probably an honours student near the top of the class. You have to decide whether you want to use your talents to go out and make the best 'widgets' (includes software) or whether you want to develop emerging technologies and focus on unsolved problems. A PhD is not essential here, but the appropriate one may be a good pathway to these jobs. My generic advice to those making career choices is to list what they like and don't like about the options, go out and meet people (and work with them if possible - holiday jobs can be great helpers) and refine your list. If still in doubt go for the one that keeps most options open.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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a.1)Having a master degree.(2 years) a.2)Working and gaining experience on the field rather than master.(2 years) a.3)Try to do both. b.1)Having a doctorate degree.(+5 years) b.2)Working and gaining experience on the field.(+5 years) b.3)Try to do both. Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.
Up until 1999, I lived and worked in Canada. Although I'd been building years and years of experience, I found it very difficult to move on - mainly because I've never had a degree. What I found is human resources departments receive loads of applications for every job, so the first thing they'll do is filter out those that don't have a degree. For them it's a quick and easy way to reduce the number of resumes to look at. I am now back in England, where a degree is much less important (although moving in that direction), but would still be very useful for mobility within the job market, as human resource departments here are starting to use the same filtering mechanism, like we saw during the dramatic down-turn a couple of years ago.