A career question

[Kenneth Ede]

Up until 1999, I lived and worked in Canada. Although I'd been building years and years of experience, I found it very difficult to move on - mainly because I've never had a degree. What I found is human resources departments receive loads of applications for every job, so the first thing they'll do is filter out those that don't have a degree. For them it's a quick and easy way to reduce the number of resumes to look at. I am now back in England, where a degree is much less important (although moving in that direction), but would still be very useful for mobility within the job market, as human resource departments here are starting to use the same filtering mechanism, like we saw during the dramatic down-turn a couple of years ago.

[ResidentGeek]

John C wrote:

I am so opposite: when I'm told I *have* to learn anything I'll learn what I have to and remember it for exactly as long as I need to and not a second beyond, I had no problem passing tests all my life but it's in one ear and out the other as quickly as possible.

Oh, don't get me wrong; there are classes I've had to take in my past that I was more or less the same about. I think that's true for everyone. If you don't see a personal benefit in remembering something you're forced to learn, it's very easy to quickly memorize only what you need, and not really learn it so it becomes part of your long-term memory. However, I would like to say I've spent enough time in the real world to see the personal benefit for most things I'm learning these days. I hope so, anyway!

On the other hand if I'm interested in something on my own I'll learn about it exhaustively, every last detail until there's no scrap of information left and will generally retain most of it that is in any way interesting.

If it's something I find fascinating, I agree. But what about the stuff that isn't so fascinating, necessarily, but it is useful if you would only learn it? That's more the stuff I'm talking about here. I am interested, but not fascinated to the point of being driven to spend that precious resource I have so little of to focus on it without some prodding. It's bad, I know - it shows my lack of self-discipline! But at least I do recognize the quality in myself!

Formalized education and myself are like fire and water.

I have a number of friends and colleagues who are the same (including my husband, really!). And that's absolutely fine; it's not like you are stubbornly refusing to learn, after all, and neither are they. You just know yourself well enough to know that your learning style is not suited to traditional constraints of many schools. I'd say it's good to know yourself that well!

Caffeine - it's what's for breakfast! (and lunch, and dinner, and...)

[Lost User]

If you want to learn something, start working right away if you have the chance. Otherwise, go for the 2 years for obtaining your masters degree. I'm in college now and I have a job. I think I'll go for the masters degree this year, if possible... ;)

[Jorgen Andersson]

Start with deciding in which field you want to work within. If you want to program satellites at NASA you definitely need a doctorate. If you want to design homepages or administrative programs for smaller companies, then programming experience is the only thing that counts. I skipped my masters halfways through when I realized that I would end up in a Dilbert world. That could on the other hand be a dream for someone else Nowadays I work at a small company being responsible for everything IT-related and I'm quite content with that.

[Sarath C]

Christian Graus wrote:

I have no degree at all.

I am joining the Club :)

-Sarath. "Great hopes make everything great possible" - Benjamin Franklin

My blog - Sharing My Thoughts, An Article - Understanding Statepattern

[Kyle Rozendo]

Depends on the person i suppose. I've doing a Certificate in Programming, Diploma in Software Development and am now completing a BSc IT. The reasons for continuing however aren't so much for the industry, but for the chance that i might leave my country - then the degree will be important. Basically my own goals are Microsoft Certs, and the degree is a piece of paper to make life easier down the line :) Kind Regards,

Kyle Rozendo Developer :: Seriun UK :: RSA

[Robin Imrie]

<blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">Christian Graus wrote:</div>I have no degree at all. The hard thing is getting the first job with no qualifications. I got lucky. From there, I worked hard, and now I have more work than I can deal with, and no-one ever asks what my qualifications are - my work history speaks for itself. </blockquote> I have a HND (similar to a degree) in electronics! Struggled for many years to get a job as a c/c++ programmer/engineer and finally got a break and have been programming ever since. I would like to add that over the past few years I have either interviewed or worked with people who are better qualified than myself and have found their knowledge, skill and fundamental understanding to be extremely poor and have had to spend time with them teaching them the basics. Which completely stuffed up my productivity. I think at the end of the day it is not just the academic ability that’s important but ability. Though unless you manage to have a break like Christian and myself then I think a degree could help that first door open after that it is the experience that counts.

[micmanos]

There is really no Golden rule here. Degrees are ... purchase receits that verify you've bought the required set of tools. Experience is ... the list of satisfied customers that verify you actually know what to do with the tools you have !!! At the beggining, all you do is show the tools you've got and ask for a chance to show them what you can do with them. That's the hardest part because you really don't have that much time to proove your worthyness. Why? Because, from a point beyond (as you get older) people will not ask what you know, but what you've done/can do. If you did manage your younger life good by actually applying what you've learned, you'll have no problem with this. This is why people don't want to hire/pay PhD. Because deep down, we all know that mastering the theory usually means you've stayed away from the action. For the employer, it means that you simply didn't go through the firepit or didn't spend enough time in it. So, you understand that the honorary title of MSc, PhD, MPh, .. etc. Are prestigious only for the younger as it makes them more attractive to society. When you get into the ring though, nothing counts more than brute force power which unfortunatelly, only experience provides. Non-employment exists in both sides, but it's not really the degree or the experience that gets you a good job. It's the personality behind those that will convince the employer to trust and invest on you. That personality needs both ingedients and at the very bottom of things .... the REAL success is finding the balance between those two, that will let YOUR trustworthy personallity show !!! ;)

[G7TNZ]

I am not interested in how for long someone has worked or what their paper qualifications are. I want to find out how good they are at what I need them to do. Neither of work experience or qualifications are more than rough indicators of this. One needs to find out the quality of the work experience and this is not found from what the candidate inflates into a CV, but only by speaking with a number of their colleagues in their previous employments, which is not practical. Grades from qualifications tell you that the candidate was able to work out what they were likely to be asked in an exam and retain the answers over a short period of time long enough to get them on paper. A PhD does not fit this model, but shows a specialised analysis and logic with the ability to write a coherent report. Unfortunately many do not have a realistic view of life or the necessities of commerce where 'good enough' is often more desirable than 'perfection'. There is no good way to find out except to employ them and watch. However, with experience a full interview can fairly reliably pick out those that are bluffing their way through life. We, at Ischus, are interested in candidate's ability to think and to find solutions within the domain of program design and writing applied to engineering problems and so a background and interest in these is necessary. Lamentably however we find many 'qualified' applicants do not have an interest in either although they have made one or the other their career choice. Martin Wells (for clarification: I have a degree in Physics) Managing Director Ischus Limited (in the UK)

[User 4146194]

Sir, you must know my boss... > 1.0 Play dumb- purpose fully mispronouce words and use asian accent. > 2.0 Communicate in a way that state clearly that you have knowledge > at the level of moron , but can get the code done. Except he has an American accent, degrees, certifications (CISSP, MCSE, PMP, CCNA, etc.), published papers, etc., but no experience (beyond my yelling at him for his ignorance and sloppy style). Personally, my BS netted me nothing; what has hindered me the most is my lack of certifications, but as I am not of the group that can read a book and pass a test, I have missed out on these little hash marks of honor bestowed by our peers. Here I am at 50+, and trying to memorize sufficient portions of the Sec+ book to pass the test; did I mention that I have been doing this sort of work since the middle 80's. I have been trying to secure a position at the local building supplies concern selling light bulbs, they say I do not have the experience!

[User 4146194]

Yes, they will call you Doctor. With anything less than a Ph.D, they will still call you an ass. hahahahaha

[Fabio Franco]

Well, I know what you feel. I've always learned programming languages by myself, but could never find a job. I realized I had to have a degree. So I started Computer Engineering college. And when I was inside college, oportunities started to rise (as trainee), and after that things were only getting better, now I have a full time job (still didn't finsih college and still attending to) at a multi-national spanish software developing company called GFT. So I think the real challenge here is to get the first job, then when you have experience in the market, doors start to open and better positions become available. Of course a degree is never a bad thing, that is why I'm still attending to the college, besides, Computer Engineering (like I do) prepares you to lots of different scenarios on your career path, including working with whole different things, from high-level software develping to low level micro-processor development and programming. I would recommend, work + college as you get a great foundation you only get on the university and experience you only get at work. It is a bit of a bitter path though: I have little time for myself and when I'm not working I'm in college and sometimes I get the weekend for myself and I use it to enjoy myself, my frineds and the ladies :-\ . Just be careful to not take an important decision without deep thought and planning and you should consider many things before you do, not just what other people think, but how you feel, and what you beleive is better for yourself. Regards, Fábio

[sacoskun]

Hi there, I am planning to work in/for Europe and you suggest me to go with MBA & PM, right? "The question is how does your compensation rates compare with the rent-a-coder people.?" I could not get this point?

[sacoskun]

Thanks to everyone who have joined the question. These replies/ideas will make me think in a deeper manner on this subject. Thanks again.

[john ivacsp com]

A PhD is over the top - you get too deep into too many things that will never have any relevance in most jobs. However, a master's degree may be an excellent choice. You learn, in depth, a broad range of theories and technologies, which you can then apply in many job related settings. For example, you'll be equipped to pick the right language or algorithm for some new project. People without the same educational background will be less likely to make the same intelligent, well thought out choices, and often times will simply stick with what they already know. My choice would be a.3 - Try to do both. Make the master's degree the primary focus, but then work part time or as an intern at a company in a field which interests you. Then by the time you graduate you'll have both the degree and experience.

[Not Active]

sacoskun wrote:

Of course there is no direct right way

Correct. Although I have both a Masters and years of experience, I was turned down for a position because I had had too many contracts, not enough stability they said. No way to please the bastards.

---

only two letters away from being an asset

[Wambach]

A PHD is works nicely if you want to lead a research team at any National Lab, NASA center, Google or Microsoft. I think Sergey Brin and Larry Page appreciate their PHDs. Kao and Burrell did nicely with Garmin though Burrell only has a masters. The research of PHD's can lead to new technologies that prove popular. Just a thought.

[GoodSyntax]

When I am interviewing developers, I'm generally more interested in their career experience. I am interested in how long they held their last position, did they grow in their position (ie. promoted from developer to senior developer, or senior developer to lead, etc). Finally I am interested in the scope of work that they engaged in. The best developers that I have encountered were mostly self taught, had exceptional career histories, had a long track record of success and promotions and took on jobs of greater complexity and company significance. More than the eduction and work experience though are the soft skills. I've always felt that I can teach you the technical skills to become successful, but I cannot teach attitude. The employees that differentiate themselves are those with a positive attitude, who are self motivated and have a passion for the field that they work in. I have turned down quite a few who were technically superior, had better educations, outstanding qualifications, but poor working attitudes. If the rest of the team does not want to work on a project with you because they don't like interacting with you on a personal or professional level, then you become an anchor that drags the whole department down. So, in order of importance (to me at least): 1. Attitude and soft skills 2. Work experience 3. Education

[MrPlankton]

You have to compete with other programmers in the world. Rent a coder [^] may be a fair standard of were compensation is going for programmers, therefore consider carefully your carreer choice.

MrPlankton

[ewshaffer]

Having the bach. degree will help get interviews and the initial job experience. Larger companies are more likely to "require" a degree than a smaller company as part of the qualifications (though some allow experience to count, they also tend to pay a lot more to someone with the piece of paper). On the other hand, most larger companies will also help you obtain a master's degree by reimbursing you for your tuition, .... One of my former employers (larger company) also liked to see employees learning new things either through training or attending classes (which led to higher ratings and thus, pay increases). Overall, I would suggest getting a job before the master's degree and see if they are willing to help by paying you to get the master's degree. As for the Phd, I would only consider that if the career you decide to follow somehow (e.g. some upper echelons of government work, research and development companies, ...) rewards or requires it... or if you discover that you just like the academic challenge without much return on investment. Most companies do not care one way or the other if you have one and it does not really help, though if you still want one, try to get them to pay for it.