A career question

[micmanos]

There is really no Golden rule here. Degrees are ... purchase receits that verify you've bought the required set of tools. Experience is ... the list of satisfied customers that verify you actually know what to do with the tools you have !!! At the beggining, all you do is show the tools you've got and ask for a chance to show them what you can do with them. That's the hardest part because you really don't have that much time to proove your worthyness. Why? Because, from a point beyond (as you get older) people will not ask what you know, but what you've done/can do. If you did manage your younger life good by actually applying what you've learned, you'll have no problem with this. This is why people don't want to hire/pay PhD. Because deep down, we all know that mastering the theory usually means you've stayed away from the action. For the employer, it means that you simply didn't go through the firepit or didn't spend enough time in it. So, you understand that the honorary title of MSc, PhD, MPh, .. etc. Are prestigious only for the younger as it makes them more attractive to society. When you get into the ring though, nothing counts more than brute force power which unfortunatelly, only experience provides. Non-employment exists in both sides, but it's not really the degree or the experience that gets you a good job. It's the personality behind those that will convince the employer to trust and invest on you. That personality needs both ingedients and at the very bottom of things .... the REAL success is finding the balance between those two, that will let YOUR trustworthy personallity show !!! ;)

[G7TNZ]

I am not interested in how for long someone has worked or what their paper qualifications are. I want to find out how good they are at what I need them to do. Neither of work experience or qualifications are more than rough indicators of this. One needs to find out the quality of the work experience and this is not found from what the candidate inflates into a CV, but only by speaking with a number of their colleagues in their previous employments, which is not practical. Grades from qualifications tell you that the candidate was able to work out what they were likely to be asked in an exam and retain the answers over a short period of time long enough to get them on paper. A PhD does not fit this model, but shows a specialised analysis and logic with the ability to write a coherent report. Unfortunately many do not have a realistic view of life or the necessities of commerce where 'good enough' is often more desirable than 'perfection'. There is no good way to find out except to employ them and watch. However, with experience a full interview can fairly reliably pick out those that are bluffing their way through life. We, at Ischus, are interested in candidate's ability to think and to find solutions within the domain of program design and writing applied to engineering problems and so a background and interest in these is necessary. Lamentably however we find many 'qualified' applicants do not have an interest in either although they have made one or the other their career choice. Martin Wells (for clarification: I have a degree in Physics) Managing Director Ischus Limited (in the UK)

[User 4146194]

Sir, you must know my boss... > 1.0 Play dumb- purpose fully mispronouce words and use asian accent. > 2.0 Communicate in a way that state clearly that you have knowledge > at the level of moron , but can get the code done. Except he has an American accent, degrees, certifications (CISSP, MCSE, PMP, CCNA, etc.), published papers, etc., but no experience (beyond my yelling at him for his ignorance and sloppy style). Personally, my BS netted me nothing; what has hindered me the most is my lack of certifications, but as I am not of the group that can read a book and pass a test, I have missed out on these little hash marks of honor bestowed by our peers. Here I am at 50+, and trying to memorize sufficient portions of the Sec+ book to pass the test; did I mention that I have been doing this sort of work since the middle 80's. I have been trying to secure a position at the local building supplies concern selling light bulbs, they say I do not have the experience!

[User 4146194]

Yes, they will call you Doctor. With anything less than a Ph.D, they will still call you an ass. hahahahaha

[Fabio Franco]

Well, I know what you feel. I've always learned programming languages by myself, but could never find a job. I realized I had to have a degree. So I started Computer Engineering college. And when I was inside college, oportunities started to rise (as trainee), and after that things were only getting better, now I have a full time job (still didn't finsih college and still attending to) at a multi-national spanish software developing company called GFT. So I think the real challenge here is to get the first job, then when you have experience in the market, doors start to open and better positions become available. Of course a degree is never a bad thing, that is why I'm still attending to the college, besides, Computer Engineering (like I do) prepares you to lots of different scenarios on your career path, including working with whole different things, from high-level software develping to low level micro-processor development and programming. I would recommend, work + college as you get a great foundation you only get on the university and experience you only get at work. It is a bit of a bitter path though: I have little time for myself and when I'm not working I'm in college and sometimes I get the weekend for myself and I use it to enjoy myself, my frineds and the ladies :-\ . Just be careful to not take an important decision without deep thought and planning and you should consider many things before you do, not just what other people think, but how you feel, and what you beleive is better for yourself. Regards, Fábio

[sacoskun]

Hi there, I am planning to work in/for Europe and you suggest me to go with MBA & PM, right? "The question is how does your compensation rates compare with the rent-a-coder people.?" I could not get this point?

[sacoskun]

Thanks to everyone who have joined the question. These replies/ideas will make me think in a deeper manner on this subject. Thanks again.

[john ivacsp com]

A PhD is over the top - you get too deep into too many things that will never have any relevance in most jobs. However, a master's degree may be an excellent choice. You learn, in depth, a broad range of theories and technologies, which you can then apply in many job related settings. For example, you'll be equipped to pick the right language or algorithm for some new project. People without the same educational background will be less likely to make the same intelligent, well thought out choices, and often times will simply stick with what they already know. My choice would be a.3 - Try to do both. Make the master's degree the primary focus, but then work part time or as an intern at a company in a field which interests you. Then by the time you graduate you'll have both the degree and experience.

[Not Active]

sacoskun wrote:

Of course there is no direct right way

Correct. Although I have both a Masters and years of experience, I was turned down for a position because I had had too many contracts, not enough stability they said. No way to please the bastards.

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only two letters away from being an asset

[Wambach]

A PHD is works nicely if you want to lead a research team at any National Lab, NASA center, Google or Microsoft. I think Sergey Brin and Larry Page appreciate their PHDs. Kao and Burrell did nicely with Garmin though Burrell only has a masters. The research of PHD's can lead to new technologies that prove popular. Just a thought.

[GoodSyntax]

When I am interviewing developers, I'm generally more interested in their career experience. I am interested in how long they held their last position, did they grow in their position (ie. promoted from developer to senior developer, or senior developer to lead, etc). Finally I am interested in the scope of work that they engaged in. The best developers that I have encountered were mostly self taught, had exceptional career histories, had a long track record of success and promotions and took on jobs of greater complexity and company significance. More than the eduction and work experience though are the soft skills. I've always felt that I can teach you the technical skills to become successful, but I cannot teach attitude. The employees that differentiate themselves are those with a positive attitude, who are self motivated and have a passion for the field that they work in. I have turned down quite a few who were technically superior, had better educations, outstanding qualifications, but poor working attitudes. If the rest of the team does not want to work on a project with you because they don't like interacting with you on a personal or professional level, then you become an anchor that drags the whole department down. So, in order of importance (to me at least): 1. Attitude and soft skills 2. Work experience 3. Education

[MrPlankton]

You have to compete with other programmers in the world. Rent a coder [^] may be a fair standard of were compensation is going for programmers, therefore consider carefully your carreer choice.

MrPlankton

[ewshaffer]

Having the bach. degree will help get interviews and the initial job experience. Larger companies are more likely to "require" a degree than a smaller company as part of the qualifications (though some allow experience to count, they also tend to pay a lot more to someone with the piece of paper). On the other hand, most larger companies will also help you obtain a master's degree by reimbursing you for your tuition, .... One of my former employers (larger company) also liked to see employees learning new things either through training or attending classes (which led to higher ratings and thus, pay increases). Overall, I would suggest getting a job before the master's degree and see if they are willing to help by paying you to get the master's degree. As for the Phd, I would only consider that if the career you decide to follow somehow (e.g. some upper echelons of government work, research and development companies, ...) rewards or requires it... or if you discover that you just like the academic challenge without much return on investment. Most companies do not care one way or the other if you have one and it does not really help, though if you still want one, try to get them to pay for it.

[Xiangyang Liu]

Tim Craig wrote:

If you had to hide it, you were looking for the wrong kind of job.

No, I would say too many bosses got the wrong job. ;P

My .NET Business Application Framework My Home Page

[grgran]

I find it interesting that the simple state "on the field". It seems to me that it depends a great deal on what field you might be interested in. If you are just interested in maximizing your income I'm not sure that an advanced degree (particularly in CS) is that useful, you just need krazy skillz. If you are looking for big company security an advanced degree can be helpful, but you still need some skillz. If you want to teach (@ university) the Phd is mandatory, but skillz are optional and often a hindrance. A lot depends on what field you are interested in. If you want to study database systems you will likely quickly find gainful employ. If you want to study AI with a focus on understanding large group behavior, your opportunities will likely be constrained. CS 101: First decide what you want to do ... then figure out how you want to do it. I wish you good luck and godspeed in reaching your goals

[MidwestLimey]

True to a degree (pun intended). Ph.Ds are handy if you're looking for a scientific or academic career, but in the business world they can be a hold back as it gives you the aura of a professional student.

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I'm largely language agnostic

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After a while they all bug me :doh:

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[jim norcal]

And many more years of paying off huge debts (unless you had really nice, wealthy parents). BUT .. more years of parties, girls, drinking and whatever else students may do these days does sound enticing, huh?

[El Corazon]

sacoskun wrote:

Which way is the right way? Of course there is no direct right way but I would be happy if pros and cons are provided also.

you are correct, there is no "right way." First you must make some distinctions, something that few graduates do. College does not tell you how to do any job, it provides you with a few tools that "could" be used in something similar to a field you want to be in. Since each field differs in the specifics, it cannot, in any way directly be 100% applicable. Experience in your chosen field is. College is a foundation of future experience, not the be-all-end-all of existance. Experience and college education are not equal and cannot even be compared to each other. BUT the honest truth, is they are. That is life, fair or unfair, that is the way of the world. You can do a lot without a college education, but you have to work your buns off to do it. But part of that is your determination, and your field of study, as well as your employer and their customer(s). Thus with all those variables, there is no one answer, but many answers, and all are true in different perspectives. I have no college education, someday I hope to get at least a BS if I stay in the specifics of the field. Not because it will gain me anything more than a piece of paper on a wall. I have written many white papers that would qualify for Masters or PhD thesis material. In one case it did. one of our customers used my work as his Master's thesis, though only understanding half of what I did, he managed to pass it through. When you draw the line between doing the work, and getting an eduction, it becomes obvious that you are more dependant on you than anything else. If you are capable of learning on your own, a college is not necessary to learn. BUT some people hold value in those pieces of paper. Many times my papers have to be co-authored at least in name only because my education is votech, not college. Yet my ideas, and my algorithms are spreading throughout my industry. When you sperate the two, you can look at them independantly and qualify their worth to you independantly. In many industries a college education is less worth than experience, in others it is more, in others they are equal. Since I do not know who you want to work for, and you may not know either, you can't really answer it in absolutes either. But you can narrow your choices. I say take the BS into the workforce, get the experience, and add the Masters later if it will

[Dave_6]

I have some college, but no degree. I was recently denied a promotion because I do not have a Bachelor’s degree. I am the acting software development manager. I mentor several people who have Bachelor’s degrees in computer science. The division director decided to formalize the current working relationship by promoting me. Once HR discovered that I don’t have a degree they fought the promotion. I lost. Get a degree! It is a criteria used by employers.

[Joel Palmer 0]

This seems like an opportunity to re-hash a conversation I had with my 14 year old son. Learning is a life-style. You don't just learn at school then stop learning once you enter the "real world". If that is your approach, even those with 4 PHDs will fail... unless, all you are doing is re-teaching acedamia. I admire those who make the effort and put out the money to get advanced degrees. However, you need to keep it all in perspective. The purpose of schooling is to prepare you to be a productive member of society. Every individual who has the opportunity for an advanced degree needs to determine where they want to be or what they want to do once they are done with their degree. This is a very personal decision. The purpose of a 4 year degree is to expose you to a variety of topics and to show you how much you don't know so, once you're done, you should know where you want to specialize. However, my experience shows me that, no matter how good the schooling is at imparting knowledge, it'll never really give you the wisdom (knowledge-applied) that living life will. Personally, I have a hard time with the concept that you should spend the first half of your life preparing for life. My recommendation is that you don't take our (or my) advise :omg: . You need to follow your own path. My 2 cents, is that it'd be good to get your 4 year degree, work a while in the field you think you'll like. Then, after gaining some insight, pursue your advanced degree.

Joel Palmer Data Integration Application Developer www.Novaspect.com