C++ Programmers unite!
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What a trivial example, you don't have to split anything, just install Oracle 200MB Client Install and do some work with it. Then try against OLE DB, even via ADO.NET. Anyway, you want to talk I/O, you better get MS to ship managed IIS, and http.sys in next service pack, sqlserver.exe and ntfs too, oh and managed mscoree and the entire i386 directory. All I/O is native, by definition, it ends up native (you know, the thing that exists with or without managed TM LTD COM), and most of it out there is untyped.
The comparison very well illustrates that:
- C++ isn't faster by default
- The cost of acquiring higher performance might kill the project
I don't think these thingschange for larger projects. Especially for them, the sane question is "how much performance do we need?", rather than "how much performance can we get?" You can write crappy code in C++ and on .NET, the deciding question is: which one is better with average programmers and limited ressources. Also, I wouldn't underestimate the optimization potential of IL. Already adjusting "hot" allocations to the CPU cache is a pretty smart move that C++ simply can't compete with (except with structural changes to the source code). Throw in target platform specific optimizations and runtime libraries (say, parallelized implementations of standard algorithms, and using a specific optimization of next years CPU directly targeted at .NET applications), and they get the future for free. "Enable Windows Update and WHAM! your C# application just got faster!" Yes, that's a marketing dream right now, but that's what we are up against.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
So there's all this talk of why C# is better than VB and why Ruby on Rails is just the peachiest thing ever, except that PERL is way hard core and blah blah blah. I found an old C++ T-shirt that I love: "My compiler compiled your compiler" And to me that says it all. C++ is still like driving a manual (sitckshift) car versus an automatic. C++ still kicks any .NET language's bum in terms of speed. C++ still allows you far more annoying and impressive errors than most other modern languages. So C++ devs: Tell us why C++ is just plain old better.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
A few weeks ago, I was wearing that shirt at a team meeting. One of the high-up dev managers walked by and told me she loved that slogan. :cool:
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ "That's what's great about doing user interface work. No matter what you do, people will say that what you did was idiotic." -- Raymond Chen
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
.NET is undeniably good for developing business applications. But most of the .NET devs ignore (or even don't know) the fact that there are other languages and every language has its own applicability.
That, is the single biggest and most enduring point of debate I have with any developer that had never known anything other than VB or .Net based languages.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "The secret to a long and healthy life is simple. Don't get ill and don't die." Pete O'Hanlon, courtesy of Rama "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
I honestly believe this is a straw man argument as there are likely far more .net developers that come from a c++ or other unmanaged language background than .net developers that come from java or have only experienced .net.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
most of the .NET devs ignore (or even don't know) the fact that there are other languages and every language has its own applicability.
Are you sure? I grew up with C++ and have done mostly C# because of business requirements needing quick go-to-market products...
"The clue train passed his station without stopping." - John Simmons / outlaw programmer "Real programmers just throw a bunch of 1s and 0s at the computer to see what sticks" - Pete O'Hanlon
You and the majority of .net programmers out there. See this is the argument that always seems to float up from current c++ developers that .net developers are somehow stupid and ignorant when in fact the majority of .net developers are just like them only a few years more enlightened. ;)
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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El Corazon wrote:
flies much better now
Probably faster too, which is good, cause you need to exercise them CPUs by giving 'em faster updates. :laugh: BTW - any word on the trials of yesterday's first gang code bashing review?
Gary
ghle wrote:
Probably faster too
Let's just say maximum height to landing exceeded the capacity of the frame when the cable holding it up was accidentally cut. But it accelerated faster than any 747 ever has outside of deliberate crash tests!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I honestly believe this is a straw man argument as there are likely far more .net developers that come from a c++ or other unmanaged language background than .net developers that come from java or have only experienced .net.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
I both agree and disagree with you. I've worked quite a bit all around the world, from Canada to [Mainland] China and particularly in the Middle East. In the Western hemisphere the abundance of such developers and engineers that have quite a bit of experience working on unmanaged languages such as C or C++ or even others is quite obvious. To me, this came as a no brainer because it is obvious that these nations have (or had) the advantage of vastly more advanced markets that needed or found the use for computers systems from the start. The more Eastern nations are recently jumping on the band wagon. During my stint in the Middle East and China, the number of older developers that have experience with such things is quite small and decreasing as the [managed] technology gets more mature and more widely available. So I have met quite a number of developers that have had absolutely no idea how things like a garbage collector works or why was their a need for pointer even. And I've met the other kind. So really, its just what circles you end up traveling in where you see this trend. I feel very sorry for a lot of the new graduates in both engineering and science. They're so limited in their knowledge. Its scary to think that these will be the "champions" of tomorrow.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "The secret to a long and healthy life is simple. Don't get ill and don't die." Pete O'Hanlon, courtesy of Rama "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
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So there's all this talk of why C# is better than VB and why Ruby on Rails is just the peachiest thing ever, except that PERL is way hard core and blah blah blah. I found an old C++ T-shirt that I love: "My compiler compiled your compiler" And to me that says it all. C++ is still like driving a manual (sitckshift) car versus an automatic. C++ still kicks any .NET language's bum in terms of speed. C++ still allows you far more annoying and impressive errors than most other modern languages. So C++ devs: Tell us why C++ is just plain old better.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I havea frickin' huge and powerful library of this'n'that, which I dearly miss doing C#
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
I both agree and disagree with you. I've worked quite a bit all around the world, from Canada to [Mainland] China and particularly in the Middle East. In the Western hemisphere the abundance of such developers and engineers that have quite a bit of experience working on unmanaged languages such as C or C++ or even others is quite obvious. To me, this came as a no brainer because it is obvious that these nations have (or had) the advantage of vastly more advanced markets that needed or found the use for computers systems from the start. The more Eastern nations are recently jumping on the band wagon. During my stint in the Middle East and China, the number of older developers that have experience with such things is quite small and decreasing as the [managed] technology gets more mature and more widely available. So I have met quite a number of developers that have had absolutely no idea how things like a garbage collector works or why was their a need for pointer even. And I've met the other kind. So really, its just what circles you end up traveling in where you see this trend. I feel very sorry for a lot of the new graduates in both engineering and science. They're so limited in their knowledge. Its scary to think that these will be the "champions" of tomorrow.
"Every time Lotus Notes starts up, somewhere a puppy, a kitten, a lamb, and a baby seal are killed. Lotus Notes is a conspiracy by the forces of Satan to drive us over the brink into madness. The CRC-32 for each file in the installation includes the numbers 666." Gary Wheeler "The secret to a long and healthy life is simple. Don't get ill and don't die." Pete O'Hanlon, courtesy of Rama "I realised that all of my best anecdotes started with "So there we were, pissed". Pete O'Hanlon
Global message boards are essentially flawed in this way. We all post based on our own experiences and someone else posts on their own experiences and the experiences are different and a flame war begins because each assumes the other is wrong. :) About the only way to realistically assert anything on a message board like this would be to attach a lifetimes worth of resume and experience to the post. Not disagreeing with you or anything, just speculating on the inherent futility of people ever really coming to agreement on most things in a place like this.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying." - David Ogilvy
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So there's all this talk of why C# is better than VB and why Ruby on Rails is just the peachiest thing ever, except that PERL is way hard core and blah blah blah. I found an old C++ T-shirt that I love: "My compiler compiled your compiler" And to me that says it all. C++ is still like driving a manual (sitckshift) car versus an automatic. C++ still kicks any .NET language's bum in terms of speed. C++ still allows you far more annoying and impressive errors than most other modern languages. So C++ devs: Tell us why C++ is just plain old better.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Hello! united! As I manufacture machines (industrial prototypes that some times have robots, CNC's, PLC's and other hardware stuff) I use VC++... It gives me what I need. Our CNC and PLC are completely PC Based and our GUI's and machine kernels work in the same machine at the same time. Then it is clear, I need power and power and power, and low memory consumption, and nothing in the middle... I mean when I want to send something to one of the n servo motors that I have in one machine I want to have it done at that moment and not after a super-nifty-framework has processed it and translated it to anything else... The last machine I've made had 26 servo amplifiers, and now we are offering one to one of our customers with 99 servo amplifiers and 64 asynchronous drives, and artificial vision... Here (if we finally make this machine) I'll need even two computers in order to control everything... possibly one for the machine control and one for the GUI and vision... By now, I need all the horsepower of the computer for me and I don't want to share it with anything else... :rolleyes: PS 1: That T-shirt is great :drool: :IWantOne:. PS 2: Of course I love the manual transmission cars... (I own one and the next one will be another manual one) :drool-again:.
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Did you get your car back? :)
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->Rajesh<-·´¯`·. Codeproject.com: Visual C++ MVP
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
Did you get your car back?
Good lord! I'm impressed with your memory. No I didn't I'm afraid. I got a new (used) car that's almost exactly the same as the one that was stolen except it's white, not green.
Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
Did you get your car back?
Good lord! I'm impressed with your memory. No I didn't I'm afraid. I got a new (used) car that's almost exactly the same as the one that was stolen except it's white, not green.
Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis. I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
Nic Rowan wrote:
Good lord! I'm impressed with your memory.
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->Rajesh<-·´¯`·. Codeproject.com: Visual C++ MVP
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Besides learning lower level languages like C, C++, even Pascal_
(!)_, I would suggest learning about machine and/or CPU architecture/micro-architecture. Downloading or ordering the CPU manuals from AMD and Intel helps here. That kind of knowledge translates to most languages that you will be using in your lifetime, and gives you an appreciation for what your code actually does and how it gets executed. Learning how to take advantage of CPU pipelines, caches, multiple cores, etc. regardless of what language/platform you are using, will help you write the most optimal (note: I said optimal, not necessarily fastest) code that you can. Peace!-=- James
Please rate this message - let me know if I helped or not! * * *If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
See DeleteFXPFilesPeople keep mentioning getting manuals, studying this and that. Quite difficult for a lot of folks. Instead, if you want to know how C++ statements get turned into assembler code, for understanding performance implications, then read Write Great Code Vol. 2, by Hyde. Volume 1 is about machine architecture, and can be useful. If you would like to learn assembler, Art of Assembly Programming by No Starch Press is my favorite. They also developed a high-level assembler for beginners, called HLA, that is a heck of a lot simpler than the alternatives. By the way, Art of Assembler, HLA, and other stuff are all freely available for download at http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/[^] Hope this eases the pain of learning some difficult stuff... ;)
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5! And I thought Halo 3 was written on VB .NET :laugh:
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero .·´¯`·->Rajesh<-·´¯`·. Codeproject.com: Visual C++ MVP